AlpineSummer Posted April 11 Posted April 11 I've long had an attraction to a UBI in various forms. I'm also open to alternatives. I have moved more towards a FAP (poverty income baseline structure) in recent times out of pragmatism. The big main idea of that article on the German experiment is that a UBI won't diminish work incentives. That's been seen before in other studies, iirc. My main attraction to a UBI comes from the notion promulgated by Charles Murray (from a Libertarian perspective) is that it would enhance social capital. The essential element of a vibrant democratic civil society which Murray has championed along with his old time Progressive friend, Bob Putnam. It's going to have to happen outside the U.S. first on a broader scale. We're just not ready for it. Maybe more thoughts later. Quote
happycamper Posted April 11 Posted April 11 On 4/11/2025 at 3:09 PM, AlpineSummer said: I've long had an attraction to a UBI in various forms. I'm also open to alternatives. I have moved more towards a FAP (poverty income baseline structure) in recent times out of pragmatism. The big main idea of that article on the German experiment is that a UBI won't diminish work incentives. That's been seen before in other studies, iirc. My main attraction to a UBI comes from the notion promulgated by Charles Murray (from a Libertarian perspective) is that it would enhance social capital. The essential element of a vibrant democratic civil society which Murray has championed along with his old time Progressive friend, Bob Putnam. It's going to have to happen outside the U.S. first on a broader scale. We're just not ready for it. Maybe more thoughts later. Every time I hear about a successful social program it seems like it is when it is available for everyone (and intended for everyone). Medicaid is fine, but the NHS is considered more successful. US government housing has a bad reputation, while Swedish and Singaporean models of government built housing were successful. Our byzantine college aid system is a disaster, while "get admitted, no tuition" sure seems to work better. Areas with fewer private schools tend to do better academically overall. And so on. Based on this very empirical, zero theory observation, it seems like a UBI that is "you're American, you get 200 bucks a month, period" that is just dealt with at higher incomes with the tax structure is a lot more useful and healthier than the insane maze of benefits that we currently have. 2 Quote
AlpineSummer Posted April 11 Posted April 11 On 4/11/2025 at 1:18 PM, happycamper said: Every time I hear about a successful social program it seems like it is when it is available for everyone (and intended for everyone). Medicaid is fine, but the NHS is considered more successful. US government housing has a bad reputation, while Swedish and Singaporean models of government built housing were successful. Our byzantine college aid system is a disaster, while "get admitted, no tuition" sure seems to work better. Areas with fewer private schools tend to do better academically overall. And so on. Based on this very empirical, zero theory observation, it seems like a UBI that is "you're American, you get 200 bucks a month, period" that is just dealt with at higher incomes with the tax structure is a lot more useful and healthier than the insane maze of benefits that we currently have. Add a $1,000/mo. or a bit more to that $200. The UBI models have full clawbacks built in at higher income levels, but I think the American public is just too far away from accepting this. The Nixon-Friedman FAP which I mentioned the other day in some thread probably gets easier traction. I'm open to both and other models. 1 Quote
retrofade Posted April 11 Posted April 11 I've been a proponent of UBI for a really long time now. Quote
Fowl Posted April 11 Posted April 11 I've long wanted a negative income tax rate in lieu of UBI and a federal minimum wage. Every citizen who works a full time job is guaranteed to make an income (inclusive of tax rebates) that is sufficient to live on. Nothing extravagant, but enough to afford the basic necessities. Scrap the SSI and SSDI systems and include those people without the full time work requirement if they are unable to work. Quote
pomf Posted April 11 Posted April 11 Average Americans with money spend money which stimulates the economy which creates jobs. I'm pro almost anything that puts more money in the average American's pocket so I'm all for UBI. I don't think we'll ever get it because the average American will never demand it but I hope to be proven wrong. Quote
bornontheblue Posted April 11 Posted April 11 Anybody who would like to send me money directly , you can message me and I will give you the details. Thanks Quote
Bison Posted April 11 Posted April 11 Elon Musk has mentioned UBI especially if AI and humanoids replace humans in the labor force. And also if we need to be largely re-trained for new job opportunities...something that I think would be less stressful to do. It almost sounds like it is inevitable. Quote
Madmartigan Posted April 11 Posted April 11 On 4/11/2025 at 2:25 PM, bornontheblue said: Anybody who would like to send me money directly , you can message me and I will give you the details. Thanks Was hoping yer mom would share with you all the money I've sent to her for services rendered over the years. 1 Quote
AlpineSummer Posted April 11 Posted April 11 The thread just below this one was about fixing the federal budget (deficit). A UBI for all Americans age 21+ would cost upwards of $3.5T annually (at $15k/yr.). You can subtract something under $1T to eliminate income security programs except Veteran's Benefits. SS and health programs are likewise untouched. So, you have a net outflow of say $2.75T. 2025 estimates of Ind. Inc. tax revenues are around that outflow. So, it would be impossible to clawback and offset that amount without dramatically increasing tax revenues. That's true even if the UBI is cut from $15k/yr. to $12k. That German study in the OP was ≈ $16+k/yr. Yeah, there are transitional plans to eliminate SS and health programs replacing with the UBI, but that's not practical right now. UBI is going to have to wait at least a half generation. Quote
CoachKenFTW Posted April 11 Posted April 11 Scrap the money for nothing BS Eliminate double taxation on long term capital gains and qualified dividends. 1 1 Quote
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