Environmental Pollution Agency

[Jack]

On 3/13/2025 at 12:59 PM, Old_SD_Dude said:

Most state environmental protection laws, when they exist, are weaker than those of the federal government. In instances where state regulations do meet federal standards, the feds usually delegate enforcement to the state. Left to most of the states our environment would get much dirtier. 

I wonder how many rules were epa mandated vs passed by congress.

[Old_SD_Dude]

On 3/13/2025 at 2:09 PM, Jack said:

I wonder how many rules were epa mandated vs passed by congress.

Umm, the Clean Air Act, the Clean Water Act, the Endangered Species Act, and the National Environmental Policy Act were all passed by Congress and signed into law by Nixon. 

[SharkTanked]

On 3/13/2025 at 2:29 PM, Old_SD_Dude said:

Umm, the Clean Air Act, the Clean Water Act, the Endangered Species Act, and the National Environmental Policy Act were all passed by Congress and signed into law by Nixon. 

Just heard an interview today with an historian who claimed Nixon was the last liberal president. Kinda made some sense.

[AlpineSummer]

On 3/13/2025 at 3:32 PM, SharkTanked said:

Just heard an interview today with an historian who claimed Nixon was the last liberal president. Kinda made some sense.

Nixon proclaimed a "New Federalism" (devolution to states from federal), but oversaw significant federal government growth.  Just think if the national health insurance reform had gone through back then?  That and the Family Assistance Plan (guaranteed family income) would possibly have saved a fair amount of later $$ spent on future programs to address health care and poverty?  

I'd consider that less "liberal", more pragmatic, and in some ways "conservative" as those could have staved off greater (future) federal government growth. 

[SharkTanked]

On 3/13/2025 at 2:58 PM, AlpineSummer said:

Nixon proclaimed a "New Federalism" (devolution to states from federal), but oversaw significant federal government growth.  Just think if the national health insurance reform had gone through back then?  That and the Family Assistance Plan (guaranteed family income) would possibly have saved a fair amount of later $$ spent on future programs to address health care and poverty?  

I'd consider that less "liberal", more pragmatic, and in some ways "conservative" as those could have staved off greater (future) federal government growth. 

Well it comes down to the definition of "liberal" but I think the context was he was the last to significantly grow federal responsibilities in the tradition of FDR, Truman, JFK, LBJ, etc. with his environmental reforms. That thread of "liberal" changed post-Nixon (so went the argument at least). I thought it was an interesting view of Nixon's agenda.

[AlpineSummer]

On 3/13/2025 at 4:06 PM, SharkTanked said:

Well it comes down to the definition of "liberal" but I think the context was he was the last to significantly grow federal responsibilities in the tradition of FDR, Truman, JFK, LBJ, etc. with his environmental reforms. That thread of "liberal" changed post-Nixon (so went the argument at least). I thought it was an interesting view of Nixon's agenda.

It does depend on definitions and constructs.  I used to do a graphic organizer w/classes on how the federal government grew through most of the 20th Century including the Nixon Era (noting the irony). 

About a hundred years ago (well c.1985), in a POLS class taught by a guy (died recently) who became a go-to source for election coverage in Idaho, we discussed FDR in the context of political ideologies. 

The perspective then new to me was FDR was actually a conservative by modifying and saving capitalism at a time where a real systemic revolution was quite possible.  Maybe we refer to that as a Burkean conservatism? 

I lean to the view that conservatism is generally based on both gradualism and limited government, but practical expansions of government are not necessarily liberal ideology.  I'd take Nixon now in a heartbeat.  

[Jack]

On 3/13/2025 at 3:29 PM, Old_SD_Dude said:

Umm, the Clean Air Act, the Clean Water Act, the Endangered Species Act, and the National Environmental Policy Act were all passed by Congress and signed into law by Nixon. 

And I believe congress gave enough power tp the bureaucracy to make their own policy. Perhaps the most well known...the epa decided that co2 was a pollutant.  Right or wrong this was nnever directly voted upon by congress.

[Old_SD_Dude]

On 3/13/2025 at 6:21 PM, Jack said:

And I believe congress gave enough power tp the bureaucracy to make their own policy. Perhaps the most well known...the epa decided that co2 was a pollutant.  Right or wrong this was nnever directly voted upon by congress.

A long list of pollutants was included in the CAA when passed. The Act gives the EPA Director the authority to make a finding regarding other previously unregulated pollutants. A finding was made in 2009 regarding CO2 and several other GHGs. Historically we trusted scientists to make decisions like this. Some of us believe that should still be the case. The rest are morons. Never fear Jack. Once Musk finishes his purges and Trump installs his sycophants at the much-reduced agencies the morons will be firmly in charge. 

[Jack]

On 3/13/2025 at 8:18 PM, Old_SD_Dude said:

A long list of pollutants was included in the CAA when passed. The Act gives the EPA Director the authority to make a finding regarding other previously unregulated pollutants. A finding was made in 2009 regarding CO2 and several other GHGs. Historically we trusted scientists to make decisions like this. Some of us believe that should still be the case. The rest are morons. Never fear Jack. Once Musk finishes his purges and Trump installs his sycophants at the much-reduced agencies the morons will be firmly in charge. 

You prefer the biggest decisions be made by unelected officials?....but only when you like the outcome.   

[Old_SD_Dude]

On 3/14/2025 at 10:25 AM, Jack said:

You prefer the biggest decisions be made by unelected officials?....but only when you like the outcome.   

I expect people with the appropriate knowledge to make such decisions. You can trust MTG. I’ll trust some GS15. Please explain to me how people in Congress have the knowledge to make such decisions.

[Jack]

On 3/14/2025 at 11:35 AM, Old_SD_Dude said:

I expect people with the appropriate knowledge to make such decisions. You can trust MTG. I’ll trust some GS15. Please explain to me how people in Congress have the knowledge to make such decisions.

What I would expect from any elitist I guess.

[AlpineSummer]

On 3/14/2025 at 12:00 PM, Jack said:

What I would expect from any elitist I guess.

Rotflmfao.

Jack is genius. 

[Old_SD_Dude]

On 3/14/2025 at 11:00 AM, Jack said:

What I would expect from any elitist I guess.

lol. Using your logic, Congress should vote on allowable levels of E. Coli and lead in drinking water, allowable levels of pesticides in vegetables, whether asbestos should be allowed as insulation, whether children should be in car seats, and the width of travel lanes on federal highways. 

[Jack]

On 3/14/2025 at 12:04 PM, Old_SD_Dude said:

lol. Using your logic, Congress should vote on allowable levels of E. Coli and lead in drinking water, allowable levels of pesticides in vegetables, whether asbestos should be allowed as insulation, whether children should be in car seats, and the width of travel lanes on federal highways. 

All it takes a high school education to read a report that says that lead is bad for your baby. Quit being an elitist.

[SalinasSpartan]

On 3/14/2025 at 11:00 AM, Jack said:

What I would expect from any elitist I guess.

Nothing sticks it to the elites like gutting agencies that regulate the richest people and corporations. That’ll show em.

[AlpineSummer]

Jack may be the best stealth troll ever. 

[Posturedoc]

On 3/14/2025 at 11:15 AM, Jack said:

All it takes a high school education to read a report that says that lead is bad for your baby. Quit being an elitist.

Allow me to direct your attention to this thread. I’m sure your comment comports well with the critical thinking ability of the average American HS graduate. It’s those with higher education degrees who are the real ignoramouses, right? (No, I’m not suggesting a college degree inoculates one from poor critical thinking and math skills—witness many of this forum’s alleged degree-earning elites—but it surely increases access to those abilities.) 

[SalinasSpartan]

On 3/14/2025 at 11:25 AM, AlpineSummer said:

Jack may be the best stealth troll ever. 

Anti “elite” MAGA types are my faves, hands down. I love them and I hope they never change. 

[HR_poke]

On 3/13/2025 at 2:59 PM, Old_SD_Dude said:

Most state environmental protection laws, when they exist, are weaker than those of the federal government. In instances where state regulations do meet federal standards, the feds usually delegate enforcement to the state. Left to most of the states our environment would get much dirtier. 

Many moons ago Wyoming had higher standards than the epa and actually refused their enforcement in the state. But that was in the 90s I think. Obama got a lot more strict with water and air quality. Honestly I don't think some states could afford to enforce even their own regulations. CO was struggling to fund enforcement of all their new stuff for oil and gas and water quality.

[Jack]

On 3/14/2025 at 12:27 PM, Posturedoc said:

Allow me to direct your attention to this thread. I’m sure your comment comports well with the critical thinking ability of the average American HS graduate. It’s those with higher education degrees who are the real ignoramouses, right? (No, I’m not suggesting a college degree inoculates one from poor critical thinking and math skills—witness many of this forum’s alleged degree-earning elites—but it surely increases access to those abilities.) 

It takes higher education to put studies forth.

This conversation makes it pretty clear...Marxists want to educate our children  so they can't read or think.   They are easier to control that way.   So far they are doing a fine job