This Economist has it right

[bornontheblue]

On 12/1/2024 at 9:49 AM, BYUcougfan said:

It doesn't make swimming unsafe, but it does make swimming unfair.  Men swim faster than women.  That is why we have a men's category and a women's category.

Common sense is not so common anymore 

[BYUcougfan]

On 12/1/2024 at 8:59 AM, Sactowndog said:

Yeah once the Christian Right is done targeting LGBTQ and Immigrants they will probably go after heretical Mormons next.  History repeats and the same groups that bashed immigrants previously also ultimately targets Mormons.   We shall see what they say then.😉

 

 The Mormons faced persecution in the early 19th century, including mob violence and forced displacement in other states, such as Ohio and Illinois.

I am not advocating for persecution of trans people.  I am just not advocating for saying men can become women.  I hope trans people have jobs, own homes, etc.

[thelawlorfaithful]

On 12/1/2024 at 8:53 AM, BYUcougfan said:

I am not advocating for persecution of trans people.  I am just not advocating for saying men can become women.  I hope trans people have jobs, own homes, etc.

Extermination orders and swimming. You don’t have to defend yourself or the obvious against a moron.

[Sactowndog]

On 12/1/2024 at 8:49 AM, BYUcougfan said:

It doesn't make swimming unsafe, but it does make swimming unfair.  Men swim faster than women.  That is why we have a men's category and a women's category.

Whether it is unfair depends on their level of testosterone and years of testosterone.  
 

it’s not like sports are every really fair anyway.  You have women who are XXY and some from countries who cheat.  Not to mention most collegiate level athlete and every international athlete is a genetic anomaly of some sort.  So how is that fair?  
 

So if you are looking for fair go play checkers.  You need to have some appropriate testosterone level and then let it be.  The rest is just bigotry and as a Mormon you ought to be more concerned than most about the upswing in bigotry.  It wasn’t that long ago your religion was the target of it and could easily be again.  

[Sactowndog]

double post 

[Sactowndog]

by the way should Mormans become the target you can count on regardless I would be in here arguing against it just like I argue against LGBTQ bigotry.

[Sactowndog]

On 12/1/2024 at 8:49 AM, BYUcougfan said:

Men swim faster then women 

actually depends on the event.  Long distance open water swims women hold all the records.  

[BYUcougfan]

On 12/1/2024 at 3:42 PM, Sactowndog said:

Whether it is unfair depends on their level of testosterone and years of testosterone.  
 

it’s not like sports are every really fair anyway.  You have women who are XXY and some from countries who cheat.  Not to mention most collegiate level athlete and every international athlete is a genetic anomaly of some sort.  So how is that fair?  
 

So if you are looking for fair go play checkers.  You need to have some appropriate testosterone level and then let it be.  The rest is just bigotry and as a Mormon you ought to be more concerned than most about the upswing in bigotry.  It wasn’t that long ago your religion was the target of it and could easily be again.  

Then fine, let's just combine it all.  No more separate divisions in swimming. Would that work for you?

[BYUcougfan]

On 12/1/2024 at 3:43 PM, Sactowndog said:

by the way should Mormans become the target you can count on regardless I would be in here arguing against it just like I argue against LGBTQ bigotry.

It is not bigotry to say men can't become women.  They can't.  Men don't get pregnant.  Men don't menstruate.  Your ideology is in trouble when the facts are bigotry.  Just because there are facts does not mean trans people should not have jobs, homes, etc.  

[BYUcougfan]

On 12/1/2024 at 3:44 PM, Sactowndog said:

actually depends on the event.  Long distance open water swims women hold all the records.  

I swam competitively through high school.  There is no comparison between what men can achieve in the pool versus women.  I was just a decent all around boy swimmer on the team (my best event was the IM) and there were no girls who could beat me in any stroke.

[BYUcougfan]

On 12/1/2024 at 3:44 PM, Sactowndog said:

actually depends on the event.  Long distance open water swims women hold all the records.  

Are you talking about records in the pool?  Getting some team together for someone to swim forever in the ocean is a different animal.  It is not a race.

[Chile_Ute]

On 12/1/2024 at 9:53 AM, BYUcougfan said:

I am not advocating for persecution of trans people.  I am just not advocating for saying men can become women.  I hope trans people have jobs, own homes, etc.

I have no problem with MTF or FTM.  But I’ve always had a hang up with saying now that (for you) hormonally they are a woman they can step into women sports. 
 

Swimmer is a great example…developed hormonally as a man then transitioned.  One year of suppressive therapy does not offset the years “she” was developing predominantly testosterone driven.

Ive seen enough of this volleyball player that tells me there is a reason she plays at SJSU and not Nebraska, Texas, et al (aside from politics).  The blue chip players are more talented and hit harder than the Spartan chick.

I'm just not as black and white as your position…there are and will be situations where male to female athletes would be appropriate to include in female sports….with that said, this brand new territory.  I get your beliefs with male-female roles in society.  Not wrong or right for me.  Also not my place to figure out to how to “fix it”

 

[Sactowndog]

On 12/1/2024 at 4:44 PM, BYUcougfan said:

Then fine, let's just combine it all.  No more separate divisions in swimming. Would that work for you?

No I said set a level of Testosterone and leave it at that. 

[Sactowndog]

On 12/1/2024 at 4:57 PM, BYUcougfan said:

Are you talking about records in the pool?  Getting some team together for someone to swim forever in the ocean is a different animal.  It is not a race.

They do have Olympic open water swim.  It is a race 

[Sactowndog]

On 12/1/2024 at 4:52 PM, BYUcougfan said:

I swam competitively through high school.  There is no comparison between what men can achieve in the pool versus women.  I was just a decent all around boy swimmer on the team (my best event was the IM) and there were no girls who could beat me in any stroke.

I swam in high school and college.  You are behind the times on open water not being a race 

[Sactowndog]

On 12/1/2024 at 4:47 PM, BYUcougfan said:

It is not bigotry to say men can't become women.  They can't.  Men don't get pregnant.  Men don't menstruate.  Your ideology is in trouble when the facts are bigotry.  Just because there are facts does not mean trans people should not have jobs, homes, etc.  

how do you define a women?  Lots of women can’t get pregnant.  Are they not women?  Some women don’t menstruate.  Are they not women?  
 

Who decided your definition is the one that matters?  You decided your definition is final is bigotry. 

[Sactowndog]

On 12/1/2024 at 5:17 PM, Chile_Ute said:

I have no problem with MTF or FTM.  But I’ve always had a hang up with saying now that (for you) hormonally they are a woman they can step into women sports. 
 

Swimmer is a great example…developed hormonally as a man then transitioned.  One year of suppressive therapy does not offset the years “she” was developing predominantly testosterone driven.

Ive seen enough of this volleyball player that tells me there is a reason she plays at SJSU and not Nebraska, Texas, et al (aside from politics).  The blue chip players are more talented and hit harder than the Spartan chick.

I'm just not as black and white as your position…there are and will be situations where male to female athletes would be appropriate to include in female sports….with that said, this brand new territory.  I get your beliefs with male-female roles in society.  Not wrong or right for me.  Also not my place to figure out to how to “fix it”

 

That point was my daughter’s point.  If she was so good and hitting it so hard she would not be playing at SJSU she said.  From her view it was a giant nothing burger.  

[BYUcougfan]

On 12/1/2024 at 8:19 PM, Sactowndog said:

how do you define a women?  Lots of women can’t get pregnant.  Are they not women?  Some women don’t menstruate.  Are they not women?  
 

Who decided your definition is the one that matters?  You decided your definition is final is bigotry. 

Of course they are women.  However, the nature of women is that they can get pregnant.  If something happens and a woman can't conceive, we don't say the nature of women has changed, but we can all agree something went wrong.  Just like when someone is born with 9 fingers when the nature of humans is that we have 10 fingers.  They are still human but we don't say the nature of humans is now to have 9 fingers.  The nature of men is different.  They can't become women.  That is just the way it is.  Why is this so hard?  It is kindergarten stuff.

[Sactowndog]

On 12/1/2024 at 7:56 PM, BYUcougfan said:

Of course they are women.  However, the nature of women is that they can get pregnant.  If something happens and a woman can't conceive, we don't say the nature of women has changed, but we can all agree something went wrong.  Just like when someone is born with 9 fingers when the nature of humans is that we have 10 fingers.  They are still human but we don't say the nature of humans is now to have 9 fingers.  The nature of men is different.  They can't become women.  That is just the way it is.  Why is this so hard?  It is kindergarten stuff.

Why don’t you tell your wife, if you even have one, that a women is defined as someone who can get pregnant and see how that goes for you.  I can tell you my wife thinks you are a fucking idiot.  

[SharkTanked]

Many in the younger generation see gender as a social construct, not a biological one.

That is an interesting, and I would say useful, rabbit hole to go down. If approached honestly, it can lead to some significant self-reflection. It has for me. Descartes may even approve. 

That said, trans in sports fears are a Boogeyman propped up to reveal some deeply bigoted gender-based bigotry. Fear of losing the patriarchy leads to fear of losing one's own sense of identity for many. They hide behind protecting women to obscure their own insecurities. There is a reason that plank received overwhelming male support. The very idea that men must protect women is foundational to patriarchy (and a gender social construct).

It seems evident in this particular discussion. Once you see it, you see it everywhere. 

There are those who truly do seek to protect the integrity of women's sports and I can understand that take. If genuine I can empathize with it and support it. 

I can't understand the take that Democrats need to be punished for giving voice and agency to an abused people, the opposition of which seems to be just to protect the patriarchy and those who are scared to lose their power and social preference. The patriarchy must be obeyed I guess.

It doesn't have to be a zero sum game (They win, I lose). Everyone can have a voice. Everyone can be given respect. You don't lose respect, agency or rights by giving those things to others.