BroncoInferno Posted November 22, 2024 Posted November 22, 2024 On 11/22/2024 at 4:19 PM, UtGrizfan said: Afghanistan was more dealing insurgency rather then a stand up knock them down fight, similar to what other Vets dealt with in Afghanistan. Ukraine is an actual war/stand up knock em down fight which is NATO+Ukraine vs Russia and Friends. Its a modern war showcasing a bit old and new tactics that are effective, from the mass use of Drones and how effective they have been to trench warfare coming back. So, war of attrition or no? There are differences, but there are also similarities. Quote
UtGrizfan Posted November 22, 2024 Posted November 22, 2024 On 11/22/2024 at 4:28 PM, BroncoInferno said: So, war of attrition or no? There are differences, but there are also similarities. What's happening in Ukraine is definitely a war of attrition, I'd say Afghanistan was more death by a thousand cuts/guerilla war. Reports have Ukraine failing to meet recruiting goals, only meeting 2/3 of them. With an estimated 45,000 casualties per month vs only being able to recueit 30k right now. Nothing like that occurred in Afghanistan with both the US or Russia Quote
InnZoneU Posted November 23, 2024 Posted November 23, 2024 On 11/22/2024 at 3:28 PM, BroncoInferno said: So, war of attrition or no? There are differences, but there are also similarities. No modern powers have been able to win Afghanistan. Trying to nation build there was always a fruitless endeavor. I do find it funny that people are claiming Ukraine is suffering from lack of soldiers and will, when the fucking Russians have lost a lot more and have resorted into calling in North Korean troops to fight for them, most of which desert as soon as they are dropped off. If anyone is hurting, it's Russia, not Ukraine. 1 Quote
halfmanhalfbronco Posted November 23, 2024 Posted November 23, 2024 On 11/22/2024 at 4:55 PM, UtGrizfan said: What's happening in Ukraine is definitely a war of attrition, I'd say Afghanistan was more death by a thousand cuts/guerilla war. Reports have Ukraine failing to meet recruiting goals, only meeting 2/3 of them. With an estimated 45,000 casualties per month vs only being able to recueit 30k right now. Nothing like that occurred in Afghanistan with both the US or Russia The West has been so brainwashed by our propaganda about this war. Fucking morons actually thought "Ukraine is winning!!!" Ukrainian soldiers are abandoning posts at a historic level. They don't want to fight anymore. And there's nothing they are fighting for. The lost territory is lost. Full stop. Period. The Kursk occupation is being crushed while Russia makes constant steady gains in the south. 1 Quote
halfmanhalfbronco Posted November 23, 2024 Posted November 23, 2024 On 11/22/2024 at 5:11 PM, InnZoneU said: No modern powers have been able to win Afghanistan. Trying to nation build there was always a fruitless endeavor. I do find it funny that people are claiming Ukraine is suffering from lack of soldiers and will, when the fucking Russians have lost a lot more and have resorted into calling in North Korean troops to fight for them, most of which desert as soon as they are dropped off. If anyone is hurting, it's Russia, not Ukraine. Russia has fortified their defensive lines to the point Ukraine simply can't win the territory behind them back. You need a lot less men to hold fortified positions than you need to take and occupy them. Ukraine does not have the men or means to do so, and Russia has the men and means to hold them. I get that is hard to comprehend when you have been brainwashed 1 Quote
InnZoneU Posted November 23, 2024 Posted November 23, 2024 On 11/22/2024 at 4:14 PM, halfmanhalfbronco said: Russia has fortified their defensive lines to the point Ukraine simply can't win the territory behind them back. You need a lot less men to hold fortified positions than you need to take and occupy them. Ukraine does not have the men or means to do so, and Russia has the men and means to hold them. I get that is hard to comprehend when you have been brainwashed Russia does not have the men. They're out of conscripts and relying on NoKos. But they do have the means with the bomb. Which is totally antithesis to your argument about their strength on the ground advantage. Stop with the brainwashed shit if you want to be taken seriously Spiderweb. 2 Quote
UtGrizfan Posted November 23, 2024 Posted November 23, 2024 On 11/22/2024 at 5:33 PM, InnZoneU said: Russia does not have the men. They're out of conscripts and relying on NoKos. But they do have the means with the bomb. Which is totally antithesis to your argument about their strength on the ground advantage. Stop with the brainwashed shit if you want to be taken seriously Spiderweb. Big difference in this fight, North Korea has been confirmed to be sending troops, rumors China may have or other forms of support. Whose reinforcing Ukraine? No one from NATO is sending any significant body of troops, so the point that Russia and allies have plenty of men (Russia hasn't even come close to full mobilization) still stands. It's just one of the reasons why Russia is currently winning, they've taken some decent chunks of territory in the southern Donestk the last few weeks, this guy is Ukrainian and he talks about it: https://youtu.be/14vBSaCuSdA?si=vSgLRB8F4LLXQzOp 1 Quote
halfmanhalfbronco Posted November 23, 2024 Posted November 23, 2024 On 11/22/2024 at 5:33 PM, InnZoneU said: Russia does not have the men. They're out of conscripts and relying on NoKos. But they do have the means with the bomb. Which is totally antithesis to your argument about their strength on the ground advantage. Stop with the brainwashed shit if you want to be taken seriously Spiderweb. Jfc yer an idiot. Russia HAS THE MEN. That's the difference. Read fucking anything dude. What argument about their strength on the ground advantage? I'm not making one. Can you fucking read? I'm stating the FACT that the front lines are so fortified not to mention the territory behind them that Ukraine will never be able to retake them. While Russia slowly grinds away taking more Ukrainian territory by the week. Russia is absolutely not in anyway, shape or form short on men the way Ukraine is. They are short in kit and munitions and manufacturing. They still have men for days. Fucking READ you absolute monkey. Russia has MORE MEN in their military than when the war started and have not done a full mobilization yet, let alone a draft. 1 Quote
halfmanhalfbronco Posted November 24, 2024 Posted November 24, 2024 Ukraine has now officially lost 40% of the Kursk territory they gained. This could go down as an epic military blunder. Meanwhile Russia is capturing territory in the South at a faster pace as Ukraine desperately tries to hold onto the Kursk territories instead of reinforcing their own. Absolute incompetence by Ukraine. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/11/24/russia-ukraine-war-list-of-key-events-day-1004 Their negotiating power grows weaker by the day. End this shit, for Ukraine. Zelensky is a fucking corrupt moron. He removed his best Generals because they told him the Kursk move was a bad tactical decision. He did it anyways believing it would ignite an additional rush of aid 1 Quote
halfmanhalfbronco Posted November 25, 2024 Posted November 25, 2024 Russias experimental hypersonic missile strike has more than countered Ukraine and the NATO members green lighting the use of more advanced weapons platforms being used in Russian territory. It was confirmed at Mach 11. Russia just proved it can level Kyiv without using a nuclear option. End this fucking shit. Juice no longer worth the squeeze. It should have been ended long ago when Ukraine was in a stronger position to negotiate. Quote
halfmanhalfbronco Posted November 25, 2024 Posted November 25, 2024 https://x.com/officejjsmart/status/1860718768994812149?t=tVBoUv2jK3Z-u9cDC7SWUw&s=07 You can see Ukraine has rapidly went from a stalemate to losing ground rapidly in the South ever since their Kursk move...fucking idiots. 1 Quote
happycamper Posted November 25, 2024 Posted November 25, 2024 On 11/24/2024 at 6:43 PM, halfmanhalfbronco said: Ukraine has now officially lost 40% of the Kursk territory they gained. This could go down as an epic military blunder. Meanwhile Russia is capturing territory in the South at a faster pace as Ukraine desperately tries to hold onto the Kursk territories instead of reinforcing their own. Absolute incompetence by Ukraine. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/11/24/russia-ukraine-war-list-of-key-events-day-1004 Their negotiating power grows weaker by the day. End this shit, for Ukraine. Zelensky is a fucking corrupt moron. He removed his best Generals because they told him the Kursk move was a bad tactical decision. He did it anyways believing it would ignite an additional rush of aid On 11/24/2024 at 11:18 PM, halfmanhalfbronco said: https://x.com/officejjsmart/status/1860718768994812149?t=tVBoUv2jK3Z-u9cDC7SWUw&s=07 You can see Ukraine has rapidly went from a stalemate to losing ground rapidly in the South ever since their Kursk move...fucking idiots. Didn't Ukraine tie up ~ 5 times as many troops in Kursk as they sent there, troops that were explicitly earmarked to be sent to the Eastern and Southern fronts? I believe I saw that the ~50k troops that Russia sent to Kursk were to be participating in a Zaporizhizhia offensive which is obviously not happening right now. I don't really think you can make this 1:1 comparison halfman. Ukraine was never intending to hold the parts of Kursk they invaded, and it's a lot easier to defend efficiently when you can just pull back to successive advantageous positions. 1 Quote
SalinasSpartan Posted November 26, 2024 Posted November 26, 2024 I understand wanting this war to end as quickly as possible because Ukraine simply cannot win this war. I agree with this sentiment because Ukraine continuing to fight just means more people die. At some point Zelenskyy is going to have to accept that Ukraine is going to lose territory. It’s not right, but it’s reality. What I don’t understand is people directing their anger mostly at Ukraine. That’s fuckin weird. Ukraine can’t just unilaterally stop the war unless they completely and unconditionally surrender. I want Zelenskyy to face reality and start negotiating knowing Ukraine will cede territory. But bullying Ukraine into an unconditional surrender is a bridge too far for me. 3 Quote
UtGrizfan Posted November 26, 2024 Posted November 26, 2024 On 11/25/2024 at 10:00 AM, happycamper said: Didn't Ukraine tie up ~ 5 times as many troops in Kursk as they sent there, troops that were explicitly earmarked to be sent to the Eastern and Southern fronts? I believe I saw that the ~50k troops that Russia sent to Kursk were to be participating in a Zaporizhizhia offensive which is obviously not happening right now. I don't really think you can make this 1:1 comparison halfman. Ukraine was never intending to hold the parts of Kursk they invaded, and it's a lot easier to defend efficiently when you can just pull back to successive advantageous positions. That's based on a few estimates, however it's the Kursk front that's costing them territory in the South, Ukraine has sent some of their best Divisions to hold the Kursk salient. They're wasting resources, manpower and material to hold onto territory that has 0 strategic value (outside of claiming "we have Russian Territory) while the Russians are rapidly gaining ground in the Donestk region. Means that they're not nearly tying up enough Russian forces if they're still having success in the south. 1 Quote
HR_poke Posted November 26, 2024 Posted November 26, 2024 On 11/25/2024 at 7:10 PM, SalinasSpartan said: I understand wanting this war to end as quickly as possible because Ukraine simply cannot win this war. I agree with this sentiment because Ukraine continuing to fight just means more people die. At some point Zelenskyy is going to have to accept that Ukraine is going to lose territory. It’s not right, but it’s reality. What I don’t understand is people directing their anger mostly at Ukraine. That’s fuckin weird. Ukraine can’t just unilaterally stop the war unless they completely and unconditionally surrender. I want Zelenskyy to face reality and start negotiating knowing Ukraine will cede territory. But bullying Ukraine into an unconditional surrender is a bridge too far for me. Just sucks, because they are going to have to give up a lot more territory than if they let the breakaway oblasts join russia in 2015. 3 Quote
halfmanhalfbronco Posted November 26, 2024 Posted November 26, 2024 On 11/25/2024 at 10:00 AM, happycamper said: Didn't Ukraine tie up ~ 5 times as many troops in Kursk as they sent there, troops that were explicitly earmarked to be sent to the Eastern and Southern fronts? I believe I saw that the ~50k troops that Russia sent to Kursk were to be participating in a Zaporizhizhia offensive which is obviously not happening right now. I don't really think you can make this 1:1 comparison halfman. Ukraine was never intending to hold the parts of Kursk they invaded, and it's a lot easier to defend efficiently when you can just pull back to successive advantageous positions. I appreciate your dialog on this and challenging me. Cheers. Ukraine has had moments through this war where they could have negotiated a peace in much stronger position than they have now. Their hold on the Kursk territory is crumbling rapidly at the same time Russia is starting to capture more Ukrainian land. IMO and those of now removed Ukrainian leadership, holding onto Ukrainian soil should have taken priority. The Biden admin and our NATO partners did disservice to Ukrain by not encouraging a diplomatic end at several points earlier in the conflict where Ukraine was in a stronger position. Failing to account for a possible Trump return. Things are escalating, Russia just proved their hypersonic missile capabilities and technologies are indeed potent. The asymmetric warfare is ramping up. For what gains? Towards what end? It's frustrating all the way around. 😞 Quote
halfmanhalfbronco Posted November 26, 2024 Posted November 26, 2024 On 11/25/2024 at 5:10 PM, SalinasSpartan said: I understand wanting this war to end as quickly as possible because Ukraine simply cannot win this war. I agree with this sentiment because Ukraine continuing to fight just means more people die. At some point Zelenskyy is going to have to accept that Ukraine is going to lose territory. It’s not right, but it’s reality. What I don’t understand is people directing their anger mostly at Ukraine. That’s fuckin weird. Ukraine can’t just unilaterally stop the war unless they completely and unconditionally surrender. I want Zelenskyy to face reality and start negotiating knowing Ukraine will cede territory. But bullying Ukraine into an unconditional surrender is a bridge too far for me. Russia is evil and fuck them, full stop, period. How much more can be said other than that? I think the frustration I and others have for Zelensky is his refusal to listen to his Generals, forcefully silencing critics and suppressing the media, and has not adjusted to the reality of the situation. Ukraine is and will be steadily ceding more and more territory. Their position has grown weaker. The stakes are rising with no particular advantage seeming to be had. The spectre of nuclear holocaust grows while Ukrainian civilians and soldiers on the front lines want it to end. It's frustrating. Quote
halfmanhalfbronco Posted November 26, 2024 Posted November 26, 2024 On 11/25/2024 at 7:35 PM, HR_poke said: Just sucks, because they are going to have to give up a lot more territory than if they let the breakaway oblasts join russia in 2015. Several times during this war Ukraine could have leveraged momentum for more favorable terms. That's what frustrates me. Ukraine could have ceded some territory then rebuilt their infrastructure, civilian and military, to become an absolute behave that would terrify Russia. The F16s man...if Ukraine had runways...they would have air superiority. But they don't. Just one noticeable example 1 Quote
halfmanhalfbronco Posted November 26, 2024 Posted November 26, 2024 On 11/25/2024 at 5:26 PM, UtGrizfan said: That's based on a few estimates, however it's the Kursk front that's costing them territory in the South, Ukraine has sent some of their best Divisions to hold the Kursk salient. They're wasting resources, manpower and material to hold onto territory that has 0 strategic value (outside of claiming "we have Russian Territory) while the Russians are rapidly gaining ground in the Donestk region. Means that they're not nearly tying up enough Russian forces if they're still having success in the south. And, his best Generals told him it was a bad idea. That it was a strategic error. So he removed them. The value was that it would create good PR and and urge a rush if more aide. That's it. Quote
happycamper Posted November 26, 2024 Posted November 26, 2024 On 11/25/2024 at 7:26 PM, UtGrizfan said: That's based on a few estimates, however it's the Kursk front that's costing them territory in the South, Ukraine has sent some of their best Divisions to hold the Kursk salient. They're wasting resources, manpower and material to hold onto territory that has 0 strategic value (outside of claiming "we have Russian Territory) while the Russians are rapidly gaining ground in the Donestk region. Means that they're not nearly tying up enough Russian forces if they're still having success in the south. Ukraine doesn't have "divisions" in Kursk. Based on what I've found, they have about a single division in Kursk (from what I can tell it is more organized as 4-6 independent brigades). They're tying up 3-5 times their number. I don't know what else you want them to do. It was a clear spoiling attack; I don't know how much of a difference tehy would make in the south. On 11/25/2024 at 9:35 PM, HR_poke said: Just sucks, because they are going to have to give up a lot more territory than if they let the breakaway oblasts join russia in 2015. IF you think that would have kept Russia from invading in 2022, I think you are drinking the kool-aid. On 11/25/2024 at 10:19 PM, halfmanhalfbronco said: I appreciate your dialog on this and challenging me. Cheers. Ukraine has had moments through this war where they could have negotiated a peace in much stronger position than they have now. No. This is the major issue. Ukraine has never been able to negotiate a peace. Russia does not want a peace. The only way to get a peace is to force it. The idea that Ukraine could have negotiated for a peace earlier is to misunderstand the nature of this conflict. 1 Quote
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