Biden's Gives Ukraine Green Light

[The Barber]

On 11/20/2024 at 11:47 AM, happycamper said:

It keeps calling on the US to not interfere to keep from "escalating the situation". 

Putin's actions made that outdated. It has been laid clear that it was not the US's actions that had anything to do with escalation. 

This isn't "contemporaneous news reporting". My man, you have provided one op ed from a small site and a blog post. 

Reports calling on the US to disentangle themselves from Ukraine to not "escalate the situation" aged about as well as a "Dewey Defeats Truman" newspaper. They're outdated. 

Yeah. He's some dude who hasn't had a job in 35 years, one whose duties had nothing to do with Russia or Ukraine. 

You don't have a point. You're comparing military conquest to spending money. It's objectively bullshit. 

I can't really respond to your oddly formatted posts, because you do this odd line by line response, making multiple responses to 1 post.  You also include the posts of completely different people in your response.   If I hit "Reply" it has your response to a completely different poster.

Contrary to what you've stated, I provided multiple news articles... not a single "op ed" or a" blog".  I provided a contemporaneous news article from 2015, which you've ignored in your response.  I also provided Youtube Videos.

And the guy you called an"old dude" with a blog, that you are trying to minimize, is a former high ranking diplomat / government official of Australia----I simply value his site's assessment more than yours, as he has a resume to back his opinions up.

[renoskier]

On 11/20/2024 at 1:32 PM, CoachKenFTW said:

Youtube embeds don't work here. So I can't post the video of Obama shouting down Mitt Romney for claiming that Russia was a geopolitical threat. You'll have to find it yourself, or take my word for it. Sorry if either of those are too hard on you. If it's any consolation, the mental gymnastics you perform to rationalize neo-Nazi fascism aren't my favorite thing on the forum.

umm...I think that's just what happy was saying.

Obama mocked Romney for worrying about Russia, Obama was more concerned about China and wanted to pivot our foreign policy in that direction 

[happycamper]

On 11/20/2024 at 4:40 PM, The Barber said:

I can't really respond to your oddly formatted posts, because you do this odd line by line response, making multiple responses to 1 post. 

 I respond directly under the quoted part of a comment. It's how you do things in an invision board lol. The board software is written to make it easy, you click in the message where you want to break it and push enter twice in rapid succession.

you not being able to do that is a you issue lol

On 11/20/2024 at 4:40 PM, The Barber said:

You also include the posts of completely different people in your response.   If I hit "Reply" it has your response to a completely different poster.

Yeah it's called multi quote. Why wouldn't I use it? you think it's there to not use? Just erase the part of the message you don't want to reply to lol

On 11/20/2024 at 4:40 PM, The Barber said:

Contrary to what you've stated, I provided multiple news articles... not a single "op ed" or a" blog".  I provided a contemporaneous news article from 2015, which you've ignored in your response. 

Which one? You provided two op eds that say what you want to hear, and a bbc article that didn't say what you claimed. 

On 11/20/2024 at 4:40 PM, The Barber said:

I also provided Youtube Videos.

man a word of advice. Few are going to read posted articles. nobody is ever going to watch a video you link. 

On 11/20/2024 at 4:40 PM, The Barber said:

And the guy you called an"old dude" with a blog, that you are trying to minimize, is a former high ranking diplomat / government official of Australia----I simply value his site's assessment more than yours, as he has a resume to back his opinions up.

he hasn't been in the game in 40 years my guy. he was the immigration head of the conservative (that's what liberal party means in australia... whee) party in the 80s, in australia. he's not an expert in this area, and his biases due to his associations would make me distrust him anyway.

His resume has about as much to do with post soviet relations breakups as mine does lmao. he retired when the ussr was still a thing. he's an old guy posting his thoughts on the internet. 

[happycamper]

On 11/20/2024 at 4:32 PM, CoachKenFTW said:

Youtube embeds don't work here. So I can't post the video of Obama shouting down Mitt Romney for claiming that Russia was a geopolitical threat. You'll have to find it yourself, or take my word for it. Sorry if either of those are too hard on you. If it's any consolation, the mental gymnastics you perform to rationalize neo-Nazi fascism aren't my favorite thing on the forum.

So in this post you can't figure out how to copy and paste a URL to prove exactly what I just posted, which is neo-nazi fascism?

 

[thelawlorfaithful]

On 11/20/2024 at 2:21 PM, happycamper said:

So in this post you can't figure out how to copy and paste a URL to prove exactly what I just posted, which is neo-nazi fascism?

 

[retrofade]

On 11/20/2024 at 1:32 PM, CoachKenFTW said:

Youtube embeds don't work here. So I can't post the video of Obama shouting down Mitt Romney for claiming that Russia was a geopolitical threat. You'll have to find it yourself, or take my word for it. Sorry if either of those are too hard on you. If it's any consolation, the mental gymnastics you perform to rationalize neo-Nazi fascism aren't my favorite thing on the forum.

Yes they do.

 

[renoskier]

On 11/20/2024 at 4:13 PM, retrofade said:

Yes they do.

 

holy shit...I had to turn down the volume, Obama was shouting! 

[CoachKenFTW]

On 11/20/2024 at 2:21 PM, happycamper said:

So in this post you can't figure out how to copy and paste a URL to prove exactly what I just posted, which is neo-nazi fascism?

 

Thats pretty comical!

I saw "2008 Georgia" and completely disregarded everything else in the post. It turns out you explained your mental Gymnastics better than anyone else ever could have!

2012: "RUSSIAS NOT A GEOPOLITICAL THREAT!!!"

2014: "Russia is a huge threat. We have to undermine its geopolitical influence."

Why the change in the administrations tone toward Russia's influence? Russia nutted up to the West's identity army, of course.

 

[halfmanhalfbronco]

So, back to the topic.

Ukraine will never be able to achieve the military goals set out by Zelensky.  Ever.  The majority of territory lost can not be regained. Period.  End of story.  That's the reality.  Ukrainian soldiers OVERWHELMINGLY don't want to fight for them.

I don't hate this move but it is high risk with little reward.  The reward is giving Ukraine a stronger position to negotiate peace, a peace that will require, at a minimum, coding the territory that is for all intents and purposes now Russian.  Full stop. Period.  We could have helped them negotiate that a long time ago, the inevitability of it all is obvious.

The risk, however, even if small, is the end of civilization.

 

 

[Cowboy Up]

On 11/18/2024 at 6:34 PM, stanfordchef said:

Canada is a NATO member genius.

as far as Mexico, we’d probably offer to fast track NATO membership for them rather than invade and brutally kill untold scores of people.

May take care of the illegal alien problem we seem to have…😎

[renoskier]

On 11/20/2024 at 6:02 PM, CoachKenFTW said:

  Russia nutted up to the West's identity army, of course.

 

what does this mean?

[AztecAlien]

Pay attention to the part where the reporter asks if Ukraine is angry that this wasn't approved earlier. That was my point in this thread. North Korea involved and Putin threatening the use of nukes. Not sure Joe should be making anymore decisions. Guess he wants to go out with a bang.

 

[UtGrizfan]

On 11/20/2024 at 8:25 PM, halfmanhalfbronco said:

So, back to the topic.

Ukraine will never be able to achieve the military goals set out by Zelensky.  Ever.  The majority of territory lost can not be regained. Period.  End of story.  That's the reality.  Ukrainian soldiers OVERWHELMINGLY don't want to fight for them.

I don't hate this move but it is high risk with little reward.  The reward is giving Ukraine a stronger position to negotiate peace, a peace that will require, at a minimum, coding the territory that is for all intents and purposes now Russian.  Full stop. Period.  We could have helped them negotiate that a long time ago, the inevitability of it all is obvious.

The risk, however, even if small, is the end of civilization.

 

 

As soon as it settled into a War of Attrition the advantage became 100% with Russia, history has shown repeatedly getting into that type of fight never works. They're running out of men and burning through the equipment sent by the US and NATO, while embezzling billions and losing equipment. They never stopped being a corrupt country:

https://www.npr.org/2024/01/28/1227447442/ukraine-says-corrupt-officials-stole-40-million-meant-to-buy-arms-for-the-war

[happycamper]

On 11/20/2024 at 10:25 PM, halfmanhalfbronco said:

So, back to the topic.

Ukraine will never be able to achieve the military goals set out by Zelensky.  Ever.  The majority of territory lost can not be regained. Period.  End of story.  That's the reality.  Ukrainian soldiers OVERWHELMINGLY don't want to fight for them.

I don't hate this move but it is high risk with little reward.  The reward is giving Ukraine a stronger position to negotiate peace, a peace that will require, at a minimum, coding the territory that is for all intents and purposes now Russian.  Full stop. Period.  We could have helped them negotiate that a long time ago, the inevitability of it all is obvious.

The risk, however, even if small, is the end of civilization.

 

 

I believe that you are misreading Russia. They are not negotiating in good faith. I don't think they are ever going to negotiate in good faith. Any negotiation they enter with will start and end with Ukrainian capitulation. 

The Russian state cannot maintain this pace of war. Its production is straining, it is losing artillery and military vehicles far faster than it can replace them, and it is experiencing a huge labor crunch. Ukraine doesn't need to "negotiate from a position of strength" because given continued ~90s era weapons transfers, they will just be in a position of strength, where Russia simply will not be able to threaten the existence of the Ukrainian state - probably by the end of 2026, maybe by the end of 2025. 

I believe that is the goal we should have. Continue providing munitions that we aren't using, continue helping Ukraine build out its own industrial base, and grind Russia down to the point that they just do not have the equipment to cause a mechanized breakthrough. 

In this instance I believe you'll see something like a North Korea/South Korea split in Ukraine. Which... not ideal. On the other hand, there hasn't been war on the Korean peninsula in 75 years. If the borders freeze more or less where they are and Ukraine sees at least 75 years of peace I think you have to call that a win, not just for Ukraine, but for the west. 

On 11/21/2024 at 1:19 AM, UtGrizfan said:

As soon as it settled into a War of Attrition the advantage became 100% with Russia, history has shown repeatedly getting into that type of fight never works. They're running out of men and burning through the equipment sent by the US and NATO, while embezzling billions and losing equipment. They never stopped being a corrupt country:

https://www.npr.org/2024/01/28/1227447442/ukraine-says-corrupt-officials-stole-40-million-meant-to-buy-arms-for-the-war

in all those previous wars of attrition, a lot of the advantage was...

that russia had ukraine lol

[happycamper]

On 11/20/2024 at 9:02 PM, CoachKenFTW said:

Thats pretty comical!

I saw "2008 Georgia" and completely disregarded everything else in the post. It turns out you explained your mental Gymnastics better than anyone else ever could have!

...Why? Russia invaded Georgia in 2008. That was a pretty big alarm bell around the world that Russia was going to use hard power to resist the liberal democratic and US hegemonic momentum around its periphery. 

On 11/20/2024 at 9:02 PM, CoachKenFTW said:

2012: "RUSSIAS NOT A GEOPOLITICAL THREAT!!!"

2014: "Russia is a huge threat. We have to undermine its geopolitical influence."

I mean, at our core, we're capitalist. Russia went out of its way to torpedo a trade deal that had already been passed that was going to open up a massive market for us. They fucked with the money. Why wouldn't we dislike that?

On 11/20/2024 at 9:02 PM, CoachKenFTW said:

Why the change in the administrations tone toward Russia's influence? Russia nutted up to the West's identity army, of course.

 

I don't understand what you are trying to say here. Are you saying that Russia covertly sponsored liberal ideology? Or that Russia covertly sponsored gamergate? Given your politics, I would have figured that you'd approve of that whole mess. 

[CoachKenFTW]

On 11/21/2024 at 6:08 AM, happycamper said:

...Why? Russia invaded Georgia in 2008. That was a pretty big alarm bell around the world that Russia was going to use hard power to resist the liberal democratic and US hegemonic momentum around its periphery. 

I mean, at our core, we're capitalist. Russia went out of its way to torpedo a trade deal that had already been passed that was going to open up a massive market for us. They fucked with the money. Why wouldn't we dislike that?

I don't understand what you are trying to say here. Are you saying that Russia covertly sponsored liberal ideology? Or that Russia covertly sponsored gamergate? Given your politics, I would have figured that you'd approve of that whole mess. 

You're either a hopeless troll, or you're so attached to your political narrative it's made your mind work in reverse. Good luck with all that.

Going forward, if you are so passionate about Neo-Nazi sovereignty, I think you should you spend your money to pay for Ukraine's war. Better yet, maybe consider enlisting in their army.

Many of us don't want to pay for it, and don't give a damn about Ukraine more than we do any other place.

[InnZoneU]

On 11/21/2024 at 7:25 AM, CoachKenFTW said:

You're either a hopeless troll, or you're so attached to your political narrative it's made your mind work in reverse. Good luck with all that.

Going forward, if you are so passionate about Neo-Nazi sovereignty, I think you should you spend your money to pay for Ukraine's war. Better yet, maybe consider enlisting in their army.

Many of us don't want to pay for it, and don't give a damn about Ukraine more than we do any other place.

We would all been speaking German or Russian right now if you were in charge of US foreign policy 80 years ago.  You're a true patriot.

[CoachKenFTW]

I don't like giving credit to politicians. But Trump really deserves it for politically shaming the warmongers in the pentagon, and their lackey politicians. 

If there was no Trump 45, the chicken hawks would have green lighted US missiles into Russia by summer 2022. And we'd be escalated into a WW3 scenario, or a redux of the Bush era nation building in Eastern Europe.

But after four years of relative peace, there was too much political risk for Biden to escalate the way his old boss used to. He had to wait until his lame duck period. Jan 20 can't come soon enough, literally.

[happycamper]

On 11/21/2024 at 10:25 AM, CoachKenFTW said:

You're either a hopeless troll, or you're so attached to your political narrative it's made your mind work in reverse. Good luck with all that.

Going forward, if you are so passionate about Neo-Nazi sovereignty, I think you should you spend your money to pay for Ukraine's war.

I am "spendi(ing) my money to pay for Ukraine's war" lmao. I pay taxes. What are you talking about

On 11/21/2024 at 10:25 AM, CoachKenFTW said:

Better yet, maybe consider enlisting in their army.

Many of us don't want to pay for it, and don't give a damn about Ukraine more than we do any other place.

Great. I care about our trade networks remaining stable and markets remaining open. That's what keeps us as rich as we are. I guess if you don't care about money, don't worry about Ukraine. Until then, stymying both Russia and China from building an opposing political bloc and economic sphere with old shit we were never going to use in the first place is exceedingly cheap. 

On 11/21/2024 at 10:39 AM, CoachKenFTW said:

I don't like giving credit to politicians. But Trump really deserves it for politically shaming the warmongers in the pentagon, and their lackey politicians. 

If there was no Trump 45, the chicken hawks would have green lighted US missiles into Russia by summer 2022. And we'd be escalated into a WW3 scenario, or a redux of the Bush era nation building in Eastern Europe.

What are you talking about? There are US and European missiles in Russia now. We're as far from WW3 as we were in Summer 2022. If anything, keeping this war where it is- away from NATO members - is doing more to prevent a WW3 than anything.  Furthermore, there's essentially no way to have "Bush era nation building in Eastern Europe". Bush era nation building involves conquering a nation and enacting a regime change with your soldiers there to hold it together. The only way that happens in Eastern Europe is if Russia wins, and conquers Ukraine, and annexes some and makes a puppet state out of the rest. So I suppose if your goals are "prevent WW3" and "no nation building in Eastern Europe" then you should full-throatedly support aide to Ukraine. 

On 11/21/2024 at 10:39 AM, CoachKenFTW said:

But after four years of relative peace, there was too much political risk for Biden to escalate the way his old boss used to. He had to wait until his lame duck period. Jan 20 can't come soon enough, literally.

What relative peace? We were still in Afghanistan, we were in the Sahel, we were in Syria. This is revisionism. 

[tailingpermit]

Can’t wait for Zelensky to get political asylum, move to a beach house in Malibu and then join The View.