Biden's Gives Ukraine Green Light

[The Barber]

On 11/20/2024 at 10:18 AM, happycamper said:

I mean... yeah dude. You're posting articles that with regards to this conflict are not just hilariously out of date, but have been objectively proven wrong by further Russian action. 

Bud, it wasn't civil war. YOUR SECOND COPY AND PASTE JOB pointed out that the war in the Donbass was between Ukranian government forces and Russian soldiers with identifying marks on their uniforms removed. I am very interested how you reconcile the idea of a civil war between Ukranian government forces and, uh, Russians. Cause the only thing I can think of is "well, you're a Russian stooge if you make that assertion" 

 

I mean... this isn't really true. The idea that Yanukovych was "democratically elected" is iffy on its face; the Orange Revolution well earlier showed that. For that matter, if anything, Yanukovitch staying in power was a result of Paul Manafort's meddling. 

Was there unrest in the Donbass? Sure! But did that result in a civil war? No. The war objectively started when "little green men" came in and took over. It was from the start a limited war between Russia and Russian proxies and Ukraine; February 2022 increased the scale and direct Russian involvement of the war. 

 

"I mean ... yeah dude".   Hahaha. 

1.  Coup - Victoria Nuland. 

2.  Little Green Men

 

 

[happycamper]

On 11/20/2024 at 1:21 PM, The Barber said:

 

"I mean ... yeah dude".   Hahaha. 

1.  Coup - Victoria Nuland. 

2.  Little Green Men

 

 

are you a bot?

[renoskier]

On 11/20/2024 at 10:21 AM, The Barber said:

 

"I mean ... yeah dude".   Hahaha. 

1.  Coup - Victoria Nuland. 

2.  Little Green Men

 

 

so a US backed candidate beats a Russian backed candidate...

that's a "coup"?

[stanfordchef]

On 11/20/2024 at 9:50 AM, CoachKenFTW said:

You know as much about California politics as you do Eastern Europe. Most of you guys live in the IMW, hence my "if you know you know" comment. Enjoy your Disney political fairy tales.

[The Barber]

On 11/20/2024 at 10:20 AM, renoskier said:

how was it a "coup"?

was it violent or was it a vote?

Just going by the media reporting it as such in 2014, after coup protests in Ukraine overthrew the government.

https://www.fairobserver.com/devils-dictionary/the-curious-reign-of-the-new-queen-victoria-nuland/

 

I think they called it a coup, as she was caught personally selecting the President of Ukraine in a leaked phone call.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26072281

 

Yes, the 2014 Victoria Nuland orchestrated coup was violent.

 

On 20 February 2014, more than 50 anti-government protesters were shot dead in Kiev's Maidan square. The massacre triggered the collapse of Ukraine's pro-Russian government, prompting Moscow to annex Crimea and sparking a separatist war in the east. At the time, riot police were blamed for the deaths, but they were not the only ones shooting that day. The BBC's Gabriel Gatehouse, who witnessed the shootings, returned to investigate.

[renoskier]

On 11/20/2024 at 10:27 AM, The Barber said:

Just going by the media reporting it as such in 2014, after coup protests in Ukraine overthrew the government.

https://www.fairobserver.com/devils-dictionary/the-curious-reign-of-the-new-queen-victoria-nuland/

 

I think they called it a coup, as she was caught personally selecting the President of Ukraine in a leaked phone call.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26072281

 

so her hand picked guy beats Putin's hand picked guy equals "coup"

 

 

[happycamper]

On 11/20/2024 at 1:27 PM, The Barber said:

Just going by the media reporting it as such in 2014, after coup protests in Ukraine overthrew the government.

https://www.fairobserver.com/devils-dictionary/the-curious-reign-of-the-new-queen-victoria-nuland/

This is just an op-ed. You realize that, right? 

On 11/20/2024 at 1:27 PM, The Barber said:

I think they called it a coup, as she was caught personally selecting the President of Ukraine in a leaked phone call.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26072281

 

This article doesn't even have the word "coup" in it. It's just that Nuland cussed out the EU lol. Did you bother to read it?

On 11/20/2024 at 1:27 PM, The Barber said:

Yes, it was violent.

 

Nobody said the Euromaidan wasn't violent lol. But it was violence of "Yanukovych ordering state security forces to snipe protestors" type violent. 

Regardless, you keep saying that the "coup" justified Russia's annexation and invasion. Why? Governments change all the time. They change in revolutions, and they change in elections, and they change in coups. But no other country has said "well there was a change of government so we're completely justified in annexing part of our neighbor". The only nation that has done that is Russia. Your framing of this issue as "well I said it was a COUP so OF COURSE Russia should have annexed Crimea and invaded the Donbass" doesn't make any sense. Nobody annexed parts of various Arab league states during the Arab Spring. Nobody annexed parts of Myanmar during their recent coups. Nobody invaded Thailand or Turkey during their many coups.

So... what gives? Why do you think this is justification in the first place?

[The Barber]

On 11/20/2024 at 10:30 AM, renoskier said:

so her hand picked guy beats Putin's hand picked guy equals "coup"

 

 

 

What happened was they had an election, and the results were overturned by a Coup (no unlike what Trump tried to do in 2020???)

Western Ukraine is ethnic Ukranians, and wants to be aligned with the West.   Eastern Ukraine has ethnic Russians, and population that wants to be aligned with Russia (Donetsk / Luhansk().

The pro-Russia candidate won the election.

Victoria Nuland / Obama Admin reported fueled violent protests (Maidan square), which led to the ouster of the pro-Russia President of Ukraine that had won the election.

This angered the Eastern Ukrainians who broke off, which prompted a war.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity

 

A large, barricaded protest camp occupied Independence Square in central Kyiv throughout the 'Maidan Uprising'. In January and February 2014, clashes between protesters and Berkut special riot police resulted in the deaths of 108 protesters and 13 police officers,^[20] and the wounding of many others. The first protesters were killed in fierce clashes with police on Hrushevsky Street on 19–22 January. Following this, protesters occupied government buildings throughout the country, and the Azarov government resigned. The deadliest clashes were on 18–20 February, which saw the most severe violence in Ukraine since it regained independence.^[35] Thousands of protesters advanced towards parliament, led by activists with shields and helmets, who were fired on by police snipers.

 

 

[The Barber]

On 11/20/2024 at 10:37 AM, happycamper said:

This article doesn't even have the word "coup" in it. It's just that Nuland cussed out the EU lol. Did you bother to read it?

 

I already posted this.  Did you bother to read it?

https://truthout.org/articles/the-ukraine-mess-that-nuland-made/

 

 

[The Barber]

https://johnmenadue.com/ted-galen-carpenter-americas-ukraine-hypocrisy-and-the-role-of-victoria-newland-a-key-biden-adviser/

US hypocrisy and the role of Victoria Newland in the Maidan Coup.

[happycamper]

On 11/20/2024 at 1:40 PM, The Barber said:

I already posted this.  Did you bother to read it?

https://truthout.org/articles/the-ukraine-mess-that-nuland-made/

 

 

..Yes? Your outdated 2015 article that has been proven wrong by Putin's actions? I read it but it didn't require a lot of comment given how its predictions were just incorrect.

Furthermore, regardless of all this - of your desperate spinnings of a coup vs a revolution, of an anti-democratic strongman held up by Manafort and Putin, of a on-its-face incorrect assertion of "Civil war" - why would any of this justify invasion and annexation? Once again, governments change all the time. Neighboring governments change all the time. The only invasions and annexations because of a government change happened because of Russia. We didn't invade Mexico when the PRI was finally voted out. Greece didn't invade Turkey during its many coups. Nobody has invaded Myanmar during its many coups. Nobody invaded France when the Algeirs putsch failed. So why are you apologizing for unprecedented actions from Russia, unless you are objectively a stooge? 

[happycamper]

On 11/20/2024 at 1:45 PM, The Barber said:

https://johnmenadue.com/ted-galen-carpenter-americas-ukraine-hypocrisy-and-the-role-of-victoria-newland-a-key-biden-adviser/

US hypocrisy and the role of Victoria Newland in the Maidan Coup.

a blog of an old australian dude!? wow! you're really giving us the hard hitting stuff!

[The Barber]

On 11/20/2024 at 10:47 AM, happycamper said:

 

..Yes? Your outdated 2015 article that has been proven wrong by Putin's actions? I read it but it didn't require a lot of comment given how its predictions were just incorrect.

Furthermore, regardless of all this - of your desperate spinnings of a coup vs a revolution, of an anti-democratic strongman held up by Manafort and Putin, of a on-its-face incorrect assertion of "Civil war" - why would any of this justify invasion and annexation? Once again, governments change all the time. Neighboring governments change all the time. The only invasions and annexations because of a government change happened because of Russia. We didn't invade Mexico when the PRI was finally voted out. Greece didn't invade Turkey during its many coups. Nobody has invaded Myanmar during its many coups. Nobody invaded France when the Algeirs putsch failed. So why are you apologizing for unprecedented actions from Russia, unless you are objectively a stooge? 

The point of the 2015 article was to show reporting that was contemporaneous reporting of the events, unaffected by the current narrative of the 2022 to current war.

LOL at calling that article "outdated". 

Again, you keep saying I am "spinning" this as a coup, when the contemporaneous news reporting from 2015 called it such ---- it is not my definition. 

If you want to dismiss such reporting as "outdated" that is one way to deal with news articles that don't support your narrative, I guess.

[The Barber]

On 11/20/2024 at 10:49 AM, happycamper said:

a blog of an old australian dude!? wow! you're really giving us the hard hitting stuff!

"An old Australian dude".

Please try to be intellectually honest.  That isn't some random "old dude".  

He is the a former diplomat and government official that has knowledge of world affairs.  You can of course disagree with him, but he has more experience on world affairs than you, so his comments carry weight.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Menadue

John Laurence Menadue AO (born 8 February 1935) is an Australian businessman and public commentator, and formerly a senior public servant and diplomat. He served as Secretary of the Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet from 1975 to 1976, working under the Whitlam and Fraser governments. He was later appointed by Malcolm Fraser as Australian Ambassador to Japan, in which position he served from 1977 to 1980, after which Menadue returned to Australia and was appointed the Secretary of the Department of Immigration and Ethnic Affairs from 1980 to 1983. Later in 1983, he became the Secretary of the Department of the Special Minister of State and the Secretary of the Department of Trade.^[4]

Menadue worked as General Manager of News Limited from 1967 to 1974.

He was Chief Executive Officer of Qantas from June 1986 to July 1989.^[9]

[CoachKenFTW]

On 11/20/2024 at 10:16 AM, happycamper said:

Once again, your comparison and comments have no basis in reality.

I get it that you don't like California. But dude, who cares? That doesn't make your comparison of "invasion, annexation, satellite state creation, active war" in any way comparable to "some political donations and influence". It's ridiculous on its face. I mean Wyoming has been actively courting China economically for coal and beef exports; are you going to compare that to "got invaded and partially annexed"? 

Thank you for illustrating my point by comparing Wyoming to Chinafornia. You didn't grow up or go to school here. And your parents and family most likely aren't from East Asia. It's OK to take other people's word for it sometimes.

[CoachKenFTW]

On 11/20/2024 at 10:50 AM, The Barber said:

The point of the 2015 article was to show reporting that was contemporaneous reporting of the events, unaffected by the current narrative of the 2022 to current war.

LOL at calling that article "outdated". 

Again, you keep saying I am "spinning" this as a coup, when the contemporaneous news reporting from 2015 called it such ---- it is not my definition. 

If you want to dismiss such reporting as "outdated" that is one way to deal with news articles that don't support your narrative, I guess.

The origins of the Obama administration's "hard-on" for Russia go back to the culture wars of the early 2010s. The lines that divide culture warriors are the same, be it international or domestic. So there's really no point. Teams 'n shit.

[happycamper]

On 11/20/2024 at 1:50 PM, The Barber said:

The point of the 2015 article was to show reporting that was contemporaneous reporting of the events, unaffected by the current narrative of the 2022 to current war.

LOL at calling that article "outdated". 

It keeps calling on the US to not interfere to keep from "escalating the situation". 

Putin's actions made that outdated. It has been laid clear that it was not the US's actions that had anything to do with escalation. 

On 11/20/2024 at 1:50 PM, The Barber said:

Again, you keep saying I am "spinning" this as a coup, when the contemporaneous news reporting from 2015 called it such ---- it is not my definition. 

This isn't "contemporaneous news reporting". My man, you have provided one op ed from a small site and a blog post. 

On 11/20/2024 at 1:50 PM, The Barber said:

If you want to dismiss such reporting as "outdated" that is one way to deal with news articles that don't support your narrative, I guess.

Reports calling on the US to disentangle themselves from Ukraine to not "escalate the situation" aged about as well as a "Dewey Defeats Truman" newspaper. They're outdated. 

On 11/20/2024 at 1:53 PM, The Barber said:

"An old Australian dude".

Please try to be intellectually honest.  That isn't some random "old dude".  

He is the a former diplomat and government official that has knowledge of world affairs.  You can of course disagree with him, but he has more experience on world affairs than you, so his comments carry weight.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Menadue

John Laurence Menadue AO (born 8 February 1935) is an Australian businessman and public commentator, and formerly a senior public servant and diplomat. He served as Secretary of the Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet from 1975 to 1976, working under the Whitlam and Fraser governments. He was later appointed by Malcolm Fraser as Australian Ambassador to Japan, in which position he served from 1977 to 1980, after which Menadue returned to Australia and was appointed the Secretary of the Department of Immigration and Ethnic Affairs from 1980 to 1983. Later in 1983, he became the Secretary of the Department of the Special Minister of State and the Secretary of the Department of Trade.^[4]

Menadue worked as General Manager of News Limited from 1967 to 1974.

He was Chief Executive Officer of Qantas from June 1986 to July 1989.^[9]

Yeah. He's some dude who hasn't had a job in 35 years, one whose duties had nothing to do with Russia or Ukraine. 

On 11/20/2024 at 2:38 PM, CoachKenFTW said:

Thank you for illustrating my point by comparing Wyoming to Chinafornia. You didn't grow up or go to school here. And your parents and family most likely aren't from East Asia. It's OK to take other people's word for it sometimes.

You don't have a point. You're comparing military conquest to spending money. It's objectively bullshit. 

[happycamper]

On 11/20/2024 at 2:44 PM, CoachKenFTW said:

The origins of the Obama administration's "hard-on" for Russia go back to the culture wars of the early 2010s. The lines that divide culture warriors are the same, be it international or domestic. So there's really no point. Teams 'n shit.

what are you talking about

For one, Russia invaded Georgia in 2008. so a "hard on" for Russia using military force to impose their will on former Soviet possessions 1) dates far before the early 2010s and 2) has nothing to do with "culture war"

For two, Obama famously mocked Romney for saying that Russia is our biggest geopolitical foe. So saying that the Obama administration was in some way more hardline against Russia is just not borne out by the historic record.

You're really used to just saying shit and people around you agreeing, aren't you?

[renoskier]

On 11/20/2024 at 11:38 AM, CoachKenFTW said:

Thank you for illustrating my point by comparing Wyoming to Chinafornia. You didn't grow up or go to school here. And your parents and family most likely aren't from East Asia. It's OK to take other people's word for it sometimes.

"other peoples word" about what?

did I miss something?

the only thing I saw was some cryptic message "if you know, you know"

wtf are you talking about?

[CoachKenFTW]

On 11/20/2024 at 11:50 AM, happycamper said:

what are you talking about

For one, Russia invaded Georgia in 2008. so a "hard on" for Russia using military force to impose their will on former Soviet possessions 1) dates far before the early 2010s and 2) has nothing to do with "culture war"

For two, Obama famously mocked Romney for saying that Russia is our biggest geopolitical foe. So saying that the Obama administration was in some way more hardline against Russia is just not borne out by the historic record.

You're really used to just saying shit and people around you agreeing, aren't you?

Youtube embeds don't work here. So I can't post the video of Obama shouting down Mitt Romney for claiming that Russia was a geopolitical threat. You'll have to find it yourself, or take my word for it. Sorry if either of those are too hard on you. If it's any consolation, the mental gymnastics you perform to rationalize neo-Nazi fascism aren't my favorite thing on the forum.