Biden's Gives Ukraine Green Light

[AztecAlien]

On 11/18/2024 at 3:39 PM, sjsbuff said:

Eh, no need to panic. I’m sure your Corrupt Orange Convict hero will end the war in, what, 2 days instead of the 1 he says it’ll take?  Really looking forward to peace flags flying on January 21…

Nice dialog. 

 

 

[SalinasSpartan]

On 11/18/2024 at 2:09 PM, CoachKenFTW said:

Fuck Ukraine, too. They picked this fight with Russia.

For perspective, what do you all think would hapen off Mexico declared it was aligning itself with the Russian military, and building bases at the border?

This is a dumb post.

[CoachKenFTW]

On 11/18/2024 at 2:14 PM, stanfordchef said:

if I dip my balls in borscht will you suck them, komrade?

Oh great, another one of halftheyhalfthem's Johns. Sorry to interrupt.

[stanfordchef]

On 11/18/2024 at 4:16 PM, CoachKenFTW said:

Oh great, another one of halftheyhalfthem's Johns. Sorry to interrupt.

You can get off your knees. I know when I’ve been licked. 

[CoachKenFTW]

On 11/18/2024 at 4:15 PM, SalinasSpartan said:

This is a dumb post.

Ukraine declared its intention to pursue NATO membership. That is what prompted the invasion. Thats not dumb. It's just a  fact.

What do you think would happen if Mexico or Canada announced they were going to create a military alliance with Russia?

[stanfordchef]

On 11/18/2024 at 5:23 PM, CoachKenFTW said:

Ukraine declared its intention to pursue NATO membership. That is what prompted the invasion. Thats not dumb. It's just a  fact.

What do you think would happen if Mexico or Canada announced they were going to create a military alliance with Russia?

Canada is a NATO member genius.

as far as Mexico, we’d probably offer to fast track NATO membership for them rather than invade and brutally kill untold scores of people.

[SWspartan]

I'm reminded of the duck and cover drills we did in elementary school in Durham, North Carolina back in the 60's. Not that they would do any good. 🫠

 

 

[stanfordchef]

On 11/18/2024 at 5:57 PM, SWspartan said:

I'm reminded of the duck and cover drills we did in elementary school in Durham, North Carolina back in the 60's. Not that they would do any good. 🫠

 

 

We used to do those and there was a nuke silo visible from the school playground lol. 
 

yes that would have certainly saved the day in the event the nukes started flying around there. 

[SalinasSpartan]

On 11/18/2024 at 5:23 PM, CoachKenFTW said:

Ukraine declared its intention to pursue NATO membership. That is what prompted the invasion. Thats not dumb. It's just a  fact.

What do you think would happen if Mexico or Canada announced they were going to create a military alliance with Russia?

Now if you want to make the argument that NATO should not have existed after the end up of the Cold War, I actually agree with that. 
 

But whether I liked it or not, NATO did exist when the invasion happened. And Ukraine had EVERY right to decide for ITSELF that they wanted to be closer allies with NATO than Russia, and that in NO WAY justified Russia’s invasion.

And thanks to this invasion, NATO will NEVER be disbanded. At least not in any of our lifetimes.

[AztecAlien]

On 11/18/2024 at 2:41 PM, The Barber said:

Meh...

This is a mess that's been going on since 2014.  Here is a news article from 2015---7 years before Russia invaded.

https://truthout.org/articles/the-ukraine-mess-that-nuland-made/

Didn't help that Obama administration, Victoria Nuland orchestrated a coup in Ukraine in 2014, which cause essentially a civil war in Ukraine between ethnic Russians and right wing Ukranian militia.  Which Putin was opportunistic to invade Ukraine to create a Russia land bridge to Crimea.

I mentioned something similar on the other board and took some heat. I also criticized the U.S. response under Bush in 2008 regarding Russian aggression in the invasion of Georgia and that conflict. The U.S. response pretty much gave Putin the go sign and Obama's trying a new relationship approach with Russia after taking office in 2009 obviously was the wrong response as well. 2014 was no better. 

https://www.politico.eu/article/ukraine-slams-us-barack-obama-for-excuses-over-russia-policy-war/

https://www.defensenews.com/congress/2022/01/13/amid-border-crisis-pentagon-nominee-criticizes-obama-response-to-russias-ukraine-invasion/

 

[happycamper]

On 11/18/2024 at 4:41 PM, The Barber said:

Meh...

This is a mess that's been going on since 2014.  Here is a news article from 2015---7 years before Russia invaded.

You are wrong on two points. 

First, Russia invaded in 2014. They were the "little green men" in both the Donbass and Crimea. Ukraine had been at war with Russia for years before the large current invasion.

Second, the reason why Russia was able to seize Crimea and the Donbass was systemic corruption in Ukraine's army, dating at least to the breakup of the USSR. Ukraine had hundreds of thousands of troops on paper and about 6000 effective soldiers in 2014. That was what Russia was expecting when they tried a full-scale invasion but 7 years of drafts, trench warfare, and European training and support transformed Ukraine's army from a corruption pit to one of the most effective combat forces in Europe. 

On 11/18/2024 at 4:41 PM, The Barber said:

https://truthout.org/articles/the-ukraine-mess-that-nuland-made/

Didn't help that Obama administration, Victoria Nuland orchestrated a coup in Ukraine in 2014, which cause essentially a civil war in Ukraine between ethnic Russians and right wing Ukranian militia.  Which Putin was opportunistic to invade Ukraine to create a Russia land bridge to Crimea.

There wasn't a civil war lmao. It was an explicit invasion by Russia, supported by Russians, staffed by Russians. 

You are drinking some wild bear flavored koolaid

[happycamper]

On 11/18/2024 at 8:23 PM, CoachKenFTW said:

Ukraine declared its intention to pursue NATO membership. That is what prompted the invasion. Thats not dumb. It's just a  fact.

Russia invaded 7 years before Ukraine declared its intention to pursue Nato membership lmao

On 11/18/2024 at 8:23 PM, CoachKenFTW said:

What do you think would happen if Mexico or Canada announced they were going to create a military alliance with Russia?

I mean to make your analogy more accurate, what would happen if we invaded and annexed the entire Yucatan and created two client states in Sonora and Chihuahua, with out of uniform American soldiers, that we called "Federated Freedom Republics" and that only we recognized that who we granted American passports to, which were constantly in trench warfare with Mexico proper? 

I imagine that Mexico would probably be asking China, Russia, India... anyone for weaponry to fight us. And that any subsequent invasion on our part wouldn't be "to protect ourselves". We would already be the aggressors. Ukraine's appeal to NATO wasn't a result of NATO encroachment, it was Ukraine's response to Russian expansionism that was already happening. 

[retrofade]

I always get a kick out of the Putin apologists. 

Go read On Tyranny: Twenty Lessons from the Twentieth Century by Timothy Snyder. It's a great book, and very enlightening, especially the content he added after Russia's invasion of Ukraine. 

[RSF]

On 11/19/2024 at 8:58 AM, retrofade said:

I always get a kick out of the Putin apologists. 

Go read On Tyranny: Twenty Lessons from the Twentieth Century by Timothy Snyder. It's a great book, and very enlightening, especially the content he added after Russia's invasion of Ukraine. 

It's like Neville Chamberlain had a whole bunch of kids...

[FresnoFacts]

On 11/19/2024 at 4:15 AM, happycamper said:

I mean to make your analogy more accurate, what would happen if we invaded and annexed the entire Yucatan and created two client states in Sonora and Chihuahua, with out of uniform American soldiers, that we called "Federated Freedom Republics" and that only we recognized that who we granted American passports to, which were constantly in trench warfare with Mexico proper? 

I imagine that Mexico would probably be asking China, Russia, India... anyone for weaponry to fight us. And that any subsequent invasion on our part wouldn't be "to protect ourselves". We would already be the aggressors. Ukraine's appeal to NATO wasn't a result of NATO encroachment, it was Ukraine's response to Russian expansionism that was already happening. 

 

I think a closer analogy would be the US annexing Yucatan then creating client states out of Tamaulipas and Veracruz. We could say we were protecting US expats in those states while the strategic reality would be gaining control of the Gulf of Mexico to protect our navy, oil, and other interests.

I think that is much closer to the Russia/Ukraine situation.

[The Barber]

On 11/19/2024 at 4:11 AM, happycamper said:

You are wrong on two points. 

First, Russia invaded in 2014. They were the "little green men" in both the Donbass and Crimea. Ukraine had been at war with Russia for years before the large current invasion.

Second, the reason why Russia was able to seize Crimea and the Donbass was systemic corruption in Ukraine's army, dating at least to the breakup of the USSR. Ukraine had hundreds of thousands of troops on paper and about 6000 effective soldiers in 2014. That was what Russia was expecting when they tried a full-scale invasion but 7 years of drafts, trench warfare, and European training and support transformed Ukraine's army from a corruption pit to one of the most effective combat forces in Europe. 

There wasn't a civil war lmao. It was an explicit invasion by Russia, supported by Russians, staffed by Russians. 

You are drinking some wild bear flavored koolaid

 

Actually, you are wrong and have the timeline mixed up.

A civil war broke out in the Donbass, after the US-backed coup.   The Obama Administration - Victoria Nuland - orchestrated the coup, undoing the election.

https://css.cua.edu/ideas_and_commentary/the-american-mess-in-the-ukraine/

In early 2014, civil war broke out in the Donbass after a US-backed coup d’état had ousted the Russian-leaning government in Kiev. The coup was clearly orchestrated by Nuland, who was then assistant secretary of state for European affairs; she probably had the CIA’s assistance. Someone, likely the Russians, intercepted and leaked Nuland’s phone call to the then-US ambassador Jeffrey Pyatt. Their discussion was to decide who was to be the next prime minister of Ukraine. Nuland’s choice was Arseniy Yatsenyuk, a rabidly anti-Russian politician. Nuland famously said: ‘I think Yats is the guy.’ When Pyatt warned Nuland that the Europeans might not support Yatsenyuk, Nuland diplomatically replied: ‘Fuck the EU.’ Yats ended up as prime minister.

 

You seem confused by the Neocon created timeline.

 

Neoconservative revisionist historians like to point to Russia’s invasion of Crimea as the origin of the recent Ukrainian crisis. This account of history is, quite frankly, ludicrous. Nuland’s meddling in the internal politics of Russia’s neighbor is the equivalent of Putin orchestrating a coup in Canada to install a pro-Russian prime minister. American diplomats should not be arrogantly choosing the prime ministers of countries in the backyards of other great powers. The US’s blockheaded diplomats instigated the crisis.

Not surprisingly, within a month of the American coup in Kiev, Putin took Crimea, the most heavily pro-Russian part of Ukraine with deep historic, religious and cultural ties to Russia. During that same month of March, ‘little green men’ — armed soldiers not wearing insignia — began appearing in eastern Ukraine. The green men were Russian special forces sent to stir up an insurgency, which they did. Large sections of the Donbass fell under Russian control.

In February 2015, the French president, German chancellor and President Putin of Russia met in Minsk to try to prevent a major regional war. The Minsk accords was the kind of compromise that American diplomats should have pursued earlier. The Minsk agreement envisioned a return of the Donbass to Ukraine but with a measure of autonomy and a recognition of the region’s cultural bond with Russia. The Minsk accords and the subsequent ceasefire are now breaking down.

Ukraine is what Samuel Huntington described as a ‘cleft’ nation, deeply divided internally because ‘large groups belong to different civilizations’. Ukraine, he pointed out, is ‘divided between the Uniate nationalist Ukrainian speaking west and the Orthodox Russian-speaking east’.

[retrofade]

On 11/19/2024 at 9:06 AM, The Barber said:

 

A civil war broke out in the Donbass, after the US-backed coup.   The Obama Administration - Victoria Nuland - orchestrated the coup, undoing the election.

https://css.cua.edu/ideas_and_commentary/the-american-mess-in-the-ukraine/

In early 2014, civil war broke out in the Donbass after a US-backed coup d’état had ousted the Russian-leaning government in Kiev. The coup was clearly orchestrated by Nuland, who was then assistant secretary of state for European affairs; she probably had the CIA’s assistance. Someone, likely the Russians, intercepted and leaked Nuland’s phone call to the then-US ambassador Jeffrey Pyatt. Their discussion was to decide who was to be the next prime minister of Ukraine. Nuland’s choice was Arseniy Yatsenyuk, a rabidly anti-Russian politician. Nuland famously said: ‘I think Yats is the guy.’ When Pyatt warned Nuland that the Europeans might not support Yatsenyuk, Nuland diplomatically replied: ‘Fuck the EU.’ Yats ended up as prime minister.

 

You seem confused by the Neocon narrative you have been told that Russia invasion set things in motion. 

 

Neoconservative revisionist historians like to point to Russia’s invasion of Crimea as the origin of the recent Ukrainian crisis. This account of history is, quite frankly, ludicrous. Nuland’s meddling in the internal politics of Russia’s neighbor is the equivalent of Putin orchestrating a coup in Canada to install a pro-Russian prime minister. American diplomats should not be arrogantly choosing the prime ministers of countries in the backyards of other great powers. The US’s blockheaded diplomats instigated the crisis.

Not surprisingly, within a month of the American coup in Kiev, Putin took Crimea, the most heavily pro-Russian part of Ukraine with deep historic, religious and cultural ties to Russia. During that same month of March, ‘little green men’ — armed soldiers not wearing insignia — began appearing in eastern Ukraine. The green men were Russian special forces sent to stir up an insurgency, which they did. Large sections of the Donbass fell under Russian control.

In February 2015, the French president, German chancellor and President Putin of Russia met in Minsk to try to prevent a major regional war. The Minsk accords was the kind of compromise that American diplomats should have pursued earlier. The Minsk agreement envisioned a return of the Donbass to Ukraine but with a measure of autonomy and a recognition of the region’s cultural bond with Russia. The Minsk accords and the subsequent ceasefire are now breaking down.

Yeah, I'm not putting stock in that dude's opinion. He also believes that Michael Flynn was framed by the FBI. 

[The Barber]

On 11/19/2024 at 9:10 AM, retrofade said:

Yeah, I'm not putting stock in that dude's opinion. He also believes that Michael Flynn was framed by the FBI. 

I don't know the author, but the Catholic University of America in Washington DC is a credible university.

https://css.cua.edu/team-members/william-s-smith/

 

[retrofade]

On 11/19/2024 at 9:12 AM, The Barber said:

I don't know the author, but the Catholic University of America in Washington DC is a credible university.

https://css.cua.edu/team-members/william-s-smith/

 

That doesn't mean he knows much about Eastern Europe. He's approaching it as "neocons are bad and want war and they force Russia into this" or some such nonsense. 

Timothy Snyder is an expert on Eastern Europe and Ukraine in particular. Here's an essay he wrote just before Russia invaded in 2022.

https://snyder.substack.com/p/how-to-think-about-war-in-ukraine

[RSF]

On 11/19/2024 at 11:12 AM, The Barber said:

I don't know the author, but the Catholic University of America in Washington DC is a credible university.

https://css.cua.edu/team-members/william-s-smith/

 

A lot of nutjobs work at universities.

 

 

 

Or so I've been told.