Tone-deaf AWS CEO: Quit if you don't want to return to office

[RSF]

On 10/19/2024 at 3:29 PM, CV147 said:

By "good workers" you mean self-starters. Some workers, I agree, will work fine from home. Some workers, however, are not self-starters.

Being productive from home isn't universal by any means. In my experience many work better at the office. We can agree to disagree, I suppose.

No, I dont.

 

And yes we can.

[SalinasSpartan]

On 10/20/2024 at 2:34 AM, HR_poke said:

I don't know that he's full of shit. I think his point lacks nuance. There are definitely employees that can't handle work from home.  We ran into it during covid. Drafters were taking 2 to 3 times as long to get measurable work done.  Our CEO was getting calls from clients saying PMs weren't returning calls. Everything I'd call our geodisist during work hours he was always out in his garden away from his desk.  This isn't true of everyone obviously. Just like every company perk there will be 10 to 15% of employees that abuse it.

Right, but it is still just really stupid to make some smug ass post talking about how the other poster had “studies” but he “has experience” when there are people in this thread also with experience that don’t agree with him.

[happycamper]

On 10/20/2024 at 5:34 AM, HR_poke said:

I don't know that he's full of shit. I think his point lacks nuance. There are definitely employees that can't handle work from home.  We ran into it during covid. Drafters were taking 2 to 3 times as long to get measurable work done.  Our CEO was getting calls from clients saying PMs weren't returning calls. Everything I'd call our geodisist during work hours he was always out in his garden away from his desk.  This isn't true of everyone obviously. Just like every company perk there will be 10 to 15% of employees that abuse it.

yeah. when we had covid, i worked at a company with 2 architects, the owner (designer), 3 drafters, the business manager, and 2 part time people - interior designer and artist. 

none of the drafters got much done. Which... they dind't really have drafting setups at home; the drafter at my current company is exactly as effective at home as in the office for pure drafting. the owner got jack shit done. me, one of the architects, and the business manager were more productive per hour and worked more hours than in the office. but, because the owner couldn't get stuff done at home, he decided work from home was bullshit. 

it feels like the people who make it a dichotomy instead of an option are telling on themselves a bit. 

[InnZoneU]

WFH is really industry specific.  If all you do is go into the office and log into a computer or answer/make phone calls, it's not really necessary to spend an hour getting ready to go into the office and probably 30-mins each way drive into work every day.  The WFH person can spend that time working.  Plus in my time working at the office, I found it extremely wasteful with all the meaningless meetings and non-stop office gossip talk.  Time in the office was wasted, just like it probably is WFH.

At the end, it's all about control. 

[renoskier]

As a Realtor, I worked from home for many years. I would occasionally go to the office to pick up mail, use office equipment and supplies, or maybe attend a meeting. As an independent contractor, my broker could not make any demands on my time, so my situation/experience was obviously different.

I have no problems with Amazon or any other company making a mandatory "in-office" policy; it's a business decision. It could have a negative impact if they end up losing too many valuable employees. Companies regularly make similar decisions, some work and some don't, time will tell. 

Employees are free to make their own decision on whether to stay or go.

[Antonio Diego]

On 10/19/2024 at 8:42 AM, CV147 said:

I don't know.

If a business says employees have to come in to work, and the employees decide they won't do that, then how is it wrong for the business to then let those employees go?

Speaking as someone who has managed people in the office and at home, I believe people are much more productive in the office. That includes me. There's fewer distractions. There's more accountability. The office environment promotes good working relationships. It's much easier to go down the hall and talk to someone rather than trying to call/email and waiting for a response.

I know this is only anecdotal. But I agree with Amazon.

The only thing better at my office than at home, is my set up and space. I'm just as productive at home as in the office. The day when it's just myself, or maybe two of us,  in the office, I get more done than on days when the entire staff is in the office. The distractions are in the office.  That includes in-person weekly update meetings that are just more time consuming than anything else. There's rarely a significant or remarkable update from week-to-week. 

So AWS' "invention, collaboration and be connected" excuse to get everyone back to a five-day office work week is ridiculous. 
 

[CoachKenFTW]

I retired from my career in my 30s, right before Covid. So anything I know about RTW vs RTO is second and third hand.

But ever since asynchronous learning has gone mainstream, I have been taking various online courses that I missed out on while pursuing my degree.

AnectdotalIy, I find the zoom environment less conducive than in person learning. It could be the environment itself. Or it could that I don't retain as easily now that I'm old. I'd still recommend it to most people though.

[retrofade]

[InnZoneU]

On 10/21/2024 at 9:05 AM, renoskier said:

As a Realtor, I worked from home for many years. I would occasionally go to the office to pick up mail, use office equipment and supplies, or maybe attend a meeting. As an independent contractor, my broker could not make any demands on my time, so my situation/experience was obviously different.

I have no problems with Amazon or any other company making a mandatory "in-office" policy; it's a business decision. It could have a negative impact if they end up losing too many valuable employees. Companies regularly make similar decisions, some work and some don't, time will tell. 

Employees are free to make their own decision on whether to stay or go.

I have been a Realtor for 16 years.  Started off by going in the office bullpen every day, going to the endless bs meetings from the title girl or the loan guy who brings in bagels and sandwiches.  Made me realize I really despise most other Realtors lol.  I'm sure you know what I mean.

I don't think I've been back in the office for about 10 years. 

[retrofade]

On 11/12/2024 at 6:15 AM, InnZoneU said:

I have been a Realtor for 16 years.  Started off by going in the office bullpen every day, going to the endless bs meetings from the title girl or the loan guy who brings in bagels and sandwiches.  Made me realize I really despise most other Realtors lol.  I'm sure you know what I mean.

I don't think I've been back in the office for about 10 years. 

My mom is a Realtor and almost never sets foot in the office unless she absolutely has to. 

[clpp01]

Have worked for the same company for just over 13 years and it will be 10 years early next year that I have been exclusively working from home.  Can't imagine I'll ever go back to an in office setting.

[renoskier]

On 11/12/2024 at 6:15 AM, InnZoneU said:

I have been a Realtor for 16 years.  Started off by going in the office bullpen every day, going to the endless bs meetings from the title girl or the loan guy who brings in bagels and sandwiches.  Made me realize I really despise most other Realtors lol.  I'm sure you know what I mean.

I don't think I've been back in the office for about 10 years. 

My experience is much different; maybe because I'm older and started in 1985. Back then you had to go to the office, that's where the dial-up MLS modems were. At that time the business was much more collegial; Tuesday morning MLS meetings were well attended so you got to know agents and brokers from other offices. And Wednesday office meetings/tours were fun and informative. It was all about face to face networking. The Board of Realtors hosted annual golf tournaments and other events and the local Chamber of Commerce hosted monthly "mixers" where you'd meet many different professionals and business owners in the community. I rarely left a mixer without at least one or two phone #'s for possible leads.

One of my most memorable moments happened in my first month in the business on a Wednesday morning tour. I was the naive newbie riding with my broker with two very pretty and successful 40ish agents in the back seat. The conversation had nothing to do with real estate, it was all about the recent boob jobs both the women had. The next thing I know, tits are bared and I'm being asked my opinion. All I was thinking was "wow, what a great business!"

My last 15 years were successful but not as enjoyable as the first 20+. Of course the "crash" had something to do with that but overall I found the business had become much less personal. I like meeting new people and enjoy real "face time"; if I had started after the internet became the primary industry tool, I don't think I would have succeeded. The last 10-12 years, I can count on my fingers the number of "new" clients I had, and half of those came past client referrals.

Chatting with everyone here is fun and entertaining but certainly no substitute in person interaction.

[InnZoneU]

On 11/12/2024 at 1:21 PM, renoskier said:

My experience is much different; maybe because I'm older and started in 1985. Back then you had to go to the office, that's where the dial-up MLS modems were. At that time the business was much more collegial; Tuesday morning MLS meetings were well attended so you got to know agents and brokers from other offices. And Wednesday office meetings/tours were fun and informative. It was all about face to face networking. The Board of Realtors hosted annual golf tournaments and other events and the local Chamber of Commerce hosted monthly "mixers" where you'd meet many different professionals and business owners in the community. I rarely left a mixer without at least one or two phone #'s for possible leads.

One of my most memorable moments happened in my first month in the business on a Wednesday morning tour. I was the naive newbie riding with my broker with two very pretty and successful 40ish agents in the back seat. The conversation had nothing to do with real estate, it was all about the recent boob jobs both the women had. The next thing I know, tits are bared and I'm being asked my opinion. All I was thinking was "wow, what a great business!"

My last 15 years were successful but not as enjoyable as the first 20+. Of course the "crash" had something to do with that but overall I found the business had become much less personal. I like meeting new people and enjoy real "face time"; if I had started after the internet became the primary industry tool, I don't think I would have succeeded. The last 10-12 years, I can count on my fingers the number of "new" clients I had, and half of those came past client referrals.

Chatting with everyone here is fun and entertaining but certainly no substitute in person interaction.

I liked the education aspect, keeping up with everything going on and I do admit you get generally more energized being around others.  The free food was great.  However no work was getting done.

Just my experience, but the industry in LV just got inundated with extremely unethical people.  We had a dude in our office we name Mr. Steal Your Client, but he was best friends with the broker so nobody ever did anything about it.  I've given business to PMs who do nothing but try and steal your clients that you refer to them.  There are some genuine people who do really care to be professional as well, just not many.

I have to laugh at how much harder the job was back in the day without internet and GPS.  I remember those old MLS listing books.  It must've been miserable to actually do your own directions to homes lol.

[Soupslam]

On 10/21/2024 at 9:55 AM, InnZoneU said:

WFH is really industry specific.  If all you do is go into the office and log into a computer or answer/make phone calls, it's not really necessary to spend an hour getting ready to go into the office and probably 30-mins each way drive into work every day.  The WFH person can spend that time working.  Plus in my time working at the office, I found it extremely wasteful with all the meaningless meetings and non-stop office gossip talk.  Time in the office was wasted, just like it probably is WFH.

At the end, it's all about control. 

I think you nailed it in your first sentence. However, I could see a lot of distractions at home if you aren’t a disciplined person. I’m not sure I’d have that discipline.

Babies and kids being around and tending to their needs, particularly if the wife also WFH. The kids off to school and it’s honey time. Chores around the house that need to be done. Having an actual office at home instead of a bedroom. Sleeping in another hour or two. Getting on the internet boards. Etc, etc.

[RSF]

On 11/16/2024 at 3:21 PM, Soupslam said:

I think you nailed it in your first sentence. However, I could see a lot of distractions at home if you aren’t a disciplined person. I’m not sure I’d have that discipline.

Babies and kids being around and tending to their needs, particularly if the wife also WFH. The kids off to school and it’s honey time. Chores around the house that need to be done. Having an actual office at home instead of a bedroom. Sleeping in another hour or two. Getting on the internet boards. Etc, etc.

Sleeping instead of commuting. No downside. I get stuff done around the house and still put in a full day. Leaving my weekends much freer. Most people don’t have offices at work either - wide open cubicles, making every person walking by a distraction. 

[Billings]

On 11/12/2024 at 8:40 AM, retrofade said:

My mom is a Realtor and almost never sets foot in the office unless she absolutely has to. 

yea but Realtors are contract employees basically

[retrofade]

On 11/16/2024 at 3:55 PM, Billings said:

yea but Realtors are contract employees basically

I was agreeing with the fact that realtors don't really have to step into the office these days unless they want to. 

Contract employees are often required to go into offices, however, so I don't know what that status has to do with the discussion at hand, either. Also, that status is incredibly abused by tech and pharma companies. 

[The San Diegan]

On 10/19/2024 at 8:42 AM, CV147 said:

I don't know.

If a business says employees have to come in to work, and the employees decide they won't do that, then how is it wrong for the business to then let those employees go?

Speaking as someone who has managed people in the office and at home, I believe people are much more productive in the office. That includes me. There's fewer distractions. There's more accountability. The office environment promotes good working relationships. It's much easier to go down the hall and talk to someone rather than trying to call/email and waiting for a response.

I know this is only anecdotal. But I agree with Amazon.

I'm something of a hypocrite here, but as someone who has managed both onshore and offshore teams, I agree productivity (for most) increases in an office. However, I am remote 100% of the time now and would likely not go back (though semi-retired, so not with the same pressures as most). A good friend of mine is the only product manager at Google still working remote, and he'll walk before going back to a hybrid schedule.

[retrofade]

On 11/17/2024 at 9:17 AM, The San Diegan said:

I'm something of a hypocrite here, but as someone who has managed both onshore and offshore teams, I agree productivity (for most) increases in an office. However, I am remote 100% of the time now and would likely not go back (though semi-retired, so not with the same pressures as most). A good friend of mine is the only product manager at Google still working remote, and he'll walk before going back to a hybrid schedule.

I know of at least one PM who is still fully remote at Google. Or at least he was when I spoke with him earlier this year. The products he manages came out of X Development, their moonshot factory, though, so that might make a difference. I think at least one of the VirusTotal PMs is still remote as well. I've got a meeting with a couple of those guys next week, might ask about it, because I hadn't heard everyone was complete RTO there. 

[Slapdad]

On 11/17/2024 at 11:17 AM, The San Diegan said:

I'm something of a hypocrite here, but as someone who has managed both onshore and offshore teams, I agree productivity (for most) increases in an office. However, I am remote 100% of the time now and would likely not go back (though semi-retired, so not with the same pressures as most). A good friend of mine is the only product manager at Google still working remote, and he'll walk before going back to a hybrid schedule.

My last job, which I left in 2022 was 90% remote for myself and the finance team that worked for me. I never had a problem getting work done while working from home, but there were several members of my team for which there was a night and day difference in their productivity when working from home vs. in office. It's this group of workers (or, non-workers as the case may be) that have forced a return to the office for others, unfortunately. I had two direct reports in particular that were just awful when working from home and couldn't even remember to make it to Teams meetings, which forced me to move from 100% work from home to one or two days in the office just to keep an eye on them and that meant that I had to be in office 2-3 days a week just to crack the whip. I didn't enjoy cracking the whip or being in the office, but they left me no choice. Where I'm at now is 100% in office with no exceptions, though I've been trying to soften the Chief's stance on that and allow for some form of hybrid. Luckily, I live in town and work in a suburb, so my commute is against traffic and only 10-15 minutes, which helps.