SalinasSpartan Posted August 29, 2024 Posted August 29, 2024 On 8/29/2024 at 12:38 PM, bornontheblue said: Change AMT to make a minimum effective tax on income Raise the limit for income subject to SE Tax Eliminate preferred rates for realized gains. Just a few things that can be considered that are within the confines of the law. Whether a federal wealth tax is within the current confines of the law is an open question. I’m sure you feel strongly that it’s not, but your feelings and a few bucks will get you a cup of coffee. SCOTUS hasn’t ruled on the issue, and they probably never will because a wealth tax isn’t going to happen any time soon. 1 1 Quote
Sactowndog Posted August 29, 2024 Posted August 29, 2024 On 8/29/2024 at 12:34 PM, mugtang said: You do understand your proposal to have people sell & buy back their stocks would tank the stock market...right? Elon Musk owns 20% of Tesla. Unloading 20% of Tesla shares, regardless of him turning around and buy it back will collapse the market. It’s a virtual transaction. He isn’t unloading 20% of Tesla shares. Let me clarify this further. It is a book keeping entry of selling Y shares to himself at X market price done any time within the calendar year. Now he may have to sell some shares to pay his gains but nothing stops him from dividing his wealth by 52 and doing 1/52nd each week. also since those proceeds are used exclusively to buy US debt it will also lower rates as you will have less debt on the market. The lowering of rates will push stock price valuations up. Quote
Akkula Posted August 29, 2024 Posted August 29, 2024 On 8/29/2024 at 1:33 PM, bornontheblue said: The supreme court has already rules on this and said unrealized gains are NOT income. Try again. What? "Court sidesteps whether unrealized gains may be taxed; upholds repatriation tax" U.S. Supreme Court rules narrowly in case raising major tax issues for investors (rsmus.com) You are talking out of your ass again. Furthermore, another avenue to tax this income would be to say that the loans on assets are really just income masquerading as loans. They could just tighten up the rules to say when loans can be recharacterized as income. Another easy thing they could do would be to just measure the billionaire's lifestyle and stop letting them write off personal expenses as business expenses. Private jet...income, Fair value of mansion rent that you company bought with loan....income. Just look at the lifestyle and is the real income. Anything they keep invested in actual companies may not be income. But anything where they are getting a personal benefit is income. 1 Quote
bornontheblue Posted August 29, 2024 Posted August 29, 2024 On 8/29/2024 at 1:42 PM, SalinasSpartan said: aw is an open question It is not an open question. The SCOTUS has clearly defined what is income and and very clearly said unrealized gains are not income. The SCOTUS recently ruled on a case concerning unrealized gains. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore_v._United_States_(2024) Quote
Akkula Posted August 29, 2024 Posted August 29, 2024 On 8/29/2024 at 1:48 PM, bornontheblue said: It is not an open question. The SCOTUS has clearly defined what is income and and very clearly said unrealized gains are not income. The SCOTUS recently ruled on a case concerning unrealized gains. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore_v._United_States_(2024) No...the guy who takes undisclosed trips on billionaire's planes wrote an OPINION that unrealized gains are not income. Shocker! Quote
Akkula Posted August 29, 2024 Posted August 29, 2024 On 8/29/2024 at 1:42 PM, Sactowndog said: It’s a virtual transaction. He isn’t unloading 20% of Tesla shares. He might be unloading some shares to pay his tax bill but since those proceeds are used exclusively to buy US debt it will also lower rates as you will have less debt on the market. The lowering of rates will push stock price valuations up. The problem with some of the wealth is that, unlike Tesla, some of the assets are not publicly traded. It is fairly easy to do this with Tesla as it is pretty easy to say the value of the shares at the end of the year to mark it to market. Quote
bornontheblue Posted August 29, 2024 Posted August 29, 2024 On 8/29/2024 at 1:45 PM, Akkula said: What? "Court sidesteps whether unrealized gains may be taxed; upholds repatriation tax" U.S. Supreme Court rules narrowly in case raising major tax issues for investors (rsmus.com) You are talking out of your ass again. Furthermore, another avenue to tax this income would be to say that the loans on assets are really just income masquerading as loans. They could just tighten up the rules to say when loans can be recharacterized as income. Another easy thing they could do would be to just measure the billionaire's lifestyle and stop letting them write off personal expenses as business expenses. Private jet...income, Fair value of mansion rent that you company bought with loan....income. Just look at the lifestyle and is the real income. Anything they keep invested in actual companies may not be income. But anything where they are getting a personal benefit is income. You are a moron. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eisner_v._Macomber https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Towne_v._Eisner Both cases that defined unrealized gains as not taxable income. The supreme court in Moore v the United States DECLINED to review the broader issue of taxing unrealized gains exactly as you probably unknowingly pointed out. Quote
mugtang Posted August 29, 2024 Author Posted August 29, 2024 On 8/29/2024 at 12:38 PM, bornontheblue said: Change AMT to make a minimum effective tax on income Raise the limit for income subject to SE Tax Eliminate preferred rates for realized gains. Just a few things that can be considered that are within the confines of the law. I agree with all this. No more cap on social security wages. People with wealth over a certain limit pay ordinary income rates on all dividends and gains. Fuck AMT though. Hate that shit too. 3 Quote
SalinasSpartan Posted August 29, 2024 Posted August 29, 2024 On 8/29/2024 at 12:48 PM, bornontheblue said: It is not an open question. The SCOTUS has clearly defined what is income and and very clearly said unrealized gains are not income. The SCOTUS recently ruled on a case concerning unrealized gains. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore_v._United_States_(2024) Yea, I was aware of that case before you showed me the wiki page. Quote
stanfordchef Posted August 29, 2024 Posted August 29, 2024 On 8/29/2024 at 1:01 PM, mugtang said: I agree with all this. No more cap on social security wages. People with wealth over a certain limit pay ordinary income rates on all dividends and gains. Fuck AMT though. Hate that shit too. Nah I’m good on that. I enjoy my pay boost that hits about late February/early march in the current setup 1 Quote
SleepingGiantFan Posted August 29, 2024 Posted August 29, 2024 On 8/28/2024 at 12:12 PM, bornontheblue said: He probably shit in a jar and sell them to his supporters for $5,000 dollars a piece. "That would be a bargain. After all, my shit don't stink!" - Donald Trump 1 Quote
Akkula Posted August 29, 2024 Posted August 29, 2024 On 8/29/2024 at 1:57 PM, bornontheblue said: You are a moron. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eisner_v._Macomber https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Towne_v._Eisner Both cases that defined unrealized gains as not taxable income. The supreme court in Moore v the United States DECLINED to review the broader issue of taxing unrealized gains exactly as you probably unknowingly pointed out. A stock dividend case? Do you honestly believe that Democrats are just floating out ideas of taxing unrealized gains if this is so FIRMLY established that unrealized gains are not income? And you are going to source wikipedia to make this argument? Quote
bornontheblue Posted August 29, 2024 Posted August 29, 2024 On 8/29/2024 at 2:01 PM, mugtang said: I agree with all this. No more cap on social security wages. People with wealth over a certain limit pay ordinary income rates on all dividends and gains. Fuck AMT though. Hate that shit too. Also its time to end the sec 179 deduction and eliminate bonus depreciation. that would create a lot of tax revenue IMO Quote
Akkula Posted August 29, 2024 Posted August 29, 2024 Moore to discuss: Supreme Court punts on taxation of unrealized gains, for now Moore to discuss: Supreme Court punts on taxation of unrealized gains, for now | DLA Piper Making up alternative facts is a way of life these days...sheesh. 1 Quote
Akkula Posted August 29, 2024 Posted August 29, 2024 Unrealized Gains Tax Survives Supreme Court Scrutiny: What It Means | Kiplinger In upholding the tax, Justice Brett Kavanaugh wrote for the majority. “The MRT — which attributes the realized and undistributed income of an American-controlled foreign corporation to the entity’s American shareholders, and then taxes the American shareholders on their portions of that income — does not exceed Congress’s constitutional authority.” Quote
bornontheblue Posted August 29, 2024 Posted August 29, 2024 On 8/29/2024 at 2:05 PM, Akkula said: A stock dividend case? Do you honestly believe that Democrats are just floating out ideas of taxing unrealized gains if this is so FIRMLY established that unrealized gains are not income? And you are going to source wikipedia to make this argument? My God you are stupid as hell. Do you even understand the the finer points of the case at all. It was THE case where the supreme court ruled unrealized gains were not taxable income, and the court just this year declined to review it again. 1 Quote
bornontheblue Posted August 29, 2024 Posted August 29, 2024 On 8/29/2024 at 2:07 PM, Akkula said: Moore to discuss: Supreme Court punts on taxation of unrealized gains, for now Moore to discuss: Supreme Court punts on taxation of unrealized gains, for now | DLA Piper Making up alternative facts is a way of life these days...sheesh. No the court settled this 100 years ago. The current court declined to review it again. Quote
mugtang Posted August 29, 2024 Author Posted August 29, 2024 On 8/29/2024 at 1:04 PM, Joe from Wyo said: Nah I’m good on that. I enjoy my pay boost that hits about late February/early march in the current setup Well aren’t you special 1 Quote
Akkula Posted August 29, 2024 Posted August 29, 2024 On 8/29/2024 at 2:10 PM, bornontheblue said: No the court settled this 100 years ago. The current court declined to review it again. Your boy Trump made a tax on unrealized profit in foreign corporations in the TCJA. That is the basis of the whole Moore case. Even if you do not take any dividends and don't sell the share of your foreign corporation you have to pass through your personal income and report it as income. It is called GILTI. It is basically 100% a tax on unrealized income that is held at the corporate level. 1 Quote
stanfordchef Posted August 29, 2024 Posted August 29, 2024 On 8/29/2024 at 1:12 PM, mugtang said: Well aren’t you special It’s good to be the king 1 Quote
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