Orban in Russia and China

[retrofade]

On 7/10/2024 at 11:31 AM, Spaztecs said:

You will vote Trump for a third time because you can't stomach voting for Biden.

Incorrect. He'll vote for Trump a third time because he likes him.

[gordonsolie]

On 7/10/2024 at 2:33 PM, SharkTanked said:

Gird thy loins. Tribalism has been around for most of my life. They are just saying the quiet parts out loud now and it has devolved into populism and cult of personality to hide unpopular policy positions. 

I’m just not sure what the GOP does after Trump though. The others largely have the personalities of frogs with late stage syphilis, and won’t play nationally. Don’t see a fruitful future on their current trajectory. 

The party is basically the kid with stage 4 glioblastoma getting a Make A Wish with LeBron. They had a hella dead cat bounce to end all dead cat bounces as a party, but how does it realistically proceed? Just can’t see it, I think Trump is their Waterloo as a party. 

[AztecAlien]

On 7/10/2024 at 12:31 PM, Spaztecs said:

You will vote Trump for a third time because you can't stomach voting for Biden.

You're an idiot. 

[AlpineSummer]

Hil's take after the Mar-a-Lago meet:

 

[Hashbrowns]

On 7/8/2024 at 8:47 PM, Sactowndog said:

The same Victor Orban who served as the keynote speaker at CPAC and recently traveled to meet with:

 

[Sactowndog]

On 7/12/2024 at 6:06 PM, Hashbrowns said:

 

Guessing that is not a recent pic

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/15/world/europe/hungary-us-orban-trump.html

[Hashbrowns]

On 7/12/2024 at 6:19 PM, Sactowndog said:

Guessing that is not a recent pic

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/15/world/europe/hungary-us-orban-trump.html

Meeting people is missing the point IMO.

What’s Biden’s plan to end Ukraine War? Keep sending cash indefinitely?

Why not make the story about the actual shitty substance of Orban/China/Brazil/Trump “peace” plan? Why does the media make it about personality and “dictator” reality tv drama?

[Sactowndog]

On 7/12/2024 at 7:10 PM, Hashbrowns said:

Meeting people is missing the point IMO.

What’s Biden’s plan to end Ukraine War? Keep sending cash indefinitely?

Why not make the story about the actual shitty substance of Orban/China/Brazil/Trump “peace” plan? Why does the media make it about personality and “dictator” reality tv drama?

Because it’s not reality TV drama.  Orban literally does cozy up to Putin and Xi and has destroyed democracy in Hungary.  
 

As for Biden’s plan it’s not his war to end.  American service people are not dying in Ukraine.  

[Chile_Ute]

On 7/12/2024 at 8:18 PM, Sactowndog said:

Because it’s not reality TV drama.  Orban literally does cozy up to Putin and Xi and has destroyed democracy in Hungary.  
 

As for Biden’s plan it’s not his war to end.  American service people are not dying in Ukraine.  

Am I wrong it’s not buckets of money but US produced weaponry by US jobs that are being sent over?  Serious query.

[AlpineSummer]

On 7/12/2024 at 8:33 PM, Chile_Ute said:

Am I wrong it’s not buckets of money but US produced weaponry by US jobs that are being sent over?  Serious query.

"...about 72 percent of this money overall and 86 percent of the military aid will be spent in the United States. The reason for this high percentage is that weapons going to Ukraine are produced in U.S. factories, payments to U.S. service members are mostly spent in the United States, and even some piece of the humanitarian aid is spent in the United States. The major element of funding going to Ukraine is the economic support to the Ukrainian government, which the World Bank handles."

From just after last spring's major aid passage, but I think missing smaller subsequent actions:

https://www.csis.org/analysis/what-ukraine-aid-package-and-what-does-it-mean-future-war

[Chile_Ute]

On 7/12/2024 at 8:52 PM, AlpineSummer said:

"...about 72 percent of this money overall and 86 percent of the military aid will be spent in the United States. The reason for this high percentage is that weapons going to Ukraine are produced in U.S. factories, payments to U.S. service members are mostly spent in the United States, and even some piece of the humanitarian aid is spent in the United States. The major element of funding going to Ukraine is the economic support to the Ukrainian government, which the World Bank handles."

From just after last spring's major aid passage, but I think missing smaller subsequent actions:

https://www.csis.org/analysis/what-ukraine-aid-package-and-what-does-it-mean-future-war

So I guess I don’t understand the beef from the GOP.  We’re a military-industrial nation under the guise of democracy.  This money is predominantly staying in house without US casualties.  Fund the fuck out of it until one of the oligarchs find that Putin “tragically fell out a window” in Moscow.

Putin need to go down and anyone who is there to lick his balls (see Trump) needs to go with him.

(and I’m not missing that tax dollars are funding this but at least it’s going back into our pot)

[AlpineSummer]

On 7/12/2024 at 9:13 PM, Chile_Ute said:

So I guess I don’t understand the beef from the GOP.  We’re a military-industrial nation under the guise of democracy.  This money is predominantly staying in house without US casualties.  Fund the fuck out of it until one of the oligarchs find that Putin “tragically fell out a window” in Moscow.

Putin need to go down and anyone who is there to lick his balls (see Trump) needs to go with him.

(and I’m not missing that tax dollars are funding this but at least it’s going back into our pot)

The MIC thing is a too long, too broad debate for now, but I just don't know what the problem really is.  One larger nation invaded a neighboring sovereign. That was the 1990 line in the sand, and this one has far, far more import on our longest standing, most important strategic  alliance. And, we are not sending our guys and gals to fight and die. I'm not for war.  Sometimes you don't have a choice and for Ukraine that is it. 

[Sactowndog]

On 7/12/2024 at 7:33 PM, Chile_Ute said:

Am I wrong it’s not buckets of money but US produced weaponry by US jobs that are being sent over?  Serious query.

Most of what is being sent over is aging second hand stuff.  Even Ammo has a shelf life and has to be replaced.  So technically much of what is being sent are items we or our ally’s would have to replace anyway.  So its US produced weaponry would likely have to spend to replace anyway.  The real cost is in the Time Value of Money

[gordonsolie]

On 7/12/2024 at 11:47 PM, AlpineSummer said:

The MIC thing is a too long, too broad debate for now, but I just don't know what the problem really is.  One larger nation invaded a neighboring sovereign. That was the 1990 line in the sand, and this one has far, far more import on our longest standing, most important strategic  alliance. And, we are not sending our guys and gals to fight and die. I'm not for war.  Sometimes you don't have a choice and for Ukraine that is it. 

It’s basically us doing what Russia is doing in Syria, albeit on a larger scale. If our companies are making money off of it, I don’t see much of an issue…isn’t that part of the reason why Govt spending is factored into the GDP calc?

[renoskier]

On 7/12/2024 at 7:18 PM, Sactowndog said:

Because it’s not reality TV drama.  Orban literally does cozy up to Putin and Xi and has destroyed democracy in Hungary.  
 

As for Biden’s plan it’s not his war to end.  American service people are not dying in Ukraine.  

 

On 7/12/2024 at 7:52 PM, AlpineSummer said:

"...about 72 percent of this money overall and 86 percent of the military aid will be spent in the United States. The reason for this high percentage is that weapons going to Ukraine are produced in U.S. factories, payments to U.S. service members are mostly spent in the United States, and even some piece of the humanitarian aid is spent in the United States. The major element of funding going to Ukraine is the economic support to the Ukrainian government, which the World Bank handles."

From just after last spring's major aid passage, but I think missing smaller subsequent actions:

https://www.csis.org/analysis/what-ukraine-aid-package-and-what-does-it-mean-future-war

 

On 7/12/2024 at 8:13 PM, Chile_Ute said:

So I guess I don’t understand the beef from the GOP.  We’re a military-industrial nation under the guise of democracy.  This money is predominantly staying in house without US casualties.  Fund the fuck out of it until one of the oligarchs find that Putin “tragically fell out a window” in Moscow.

Putin need to go down and anyone who is there to lick his balls (see Trump) needs to go with him.

(and I’m not missing that tax dollars are funding this but at least it’s going back into our pot)

 

On 7/12/2024 at 10:40 PM, Sactowndog said:

Most of what is being sent over is aging second hand stuff.  Even Ammo has a shelf life and has to be replaced.  So technically much of what is being sent are items we or our ally’s would have to replace anyway.  So its US produced weaponry would likely have to spend to replace anyway.  The real cost is in the Time Value of Money

 

On 7/13/2024 at 9:04 AM, East Village Poltergeist said:

It’s basically us doing what Russia is doing in Syria, albeit on a larger scale. If our companies are making money off of it, I don’t see much of an issue…isn’t that part of the reason why Govt spending is factored into the GDP calc?

 

On 7/12/2024 at 7:10 PM, Hashbrowns said:

What’s Biden’s plan to end Ukraine War? Keep sending cash indefinitely?

@Hashbrowns do all the above posts answer your question?

[AlpineSummer]

On 7/13/2024 at 10:04 AM, East Village Poltergeist said:

It’s basically us doing what Russia is doing in Syria, albeit on a larger scale. If our companies are making money off of it, I don’t see much of an issue…isn’t that part of the reason why Govt spending is factored into the GDP calc?

Ain't nothing but a "G" thing. 

The oft too simplistic MIC explanation for war is just overused.  

[Hashbrowns]

On 7/13/2024 at 9:15 AM, renoskier said:

 

 

 

 

 

@Hashbrowns do all the above posts answer your question?

Here’s weapons, just don’t be aggressive with them strategy is a losing one.

https://apnews.com/article/nato-summit-ukraine-russia-china-biden-66656f03cd5e203d4074bdb2ead8abd8
 

Ukraine has lost about an Italy size of territory already. Moscow hasn’t felt a thing. 3% GDP growth and 100k military deaths mostly from its prisons and rural areas.

Are we in this to prop up the military-industrial complex here? Or do we actually have some moral/geopolitical necessity to help protect them? What’s the endgame here?

[renoskier]

On 7/13/2024 at 10:00 AM, Hashbrowns said:

Here’s weapons, just don’t be aggressive with them strategy is a losing one.

https://apnews.com/article/nato-summit-ukraine-russia-china-biden-66656f03cd5e203d4074bdb2ead8abd8
 

Ukraine has lost about an Italy size of territory already. Moscow hasn’t felt a thing. 3% GDP growth and 100k military deaths mostly from its prisons and rural areas.

Are we in this to prop up the military-industrial complex here? Or do we actually have some moral/geopolitical necessity to help protect them? What’s the endgame here?

the "endgame" will be determined by the principals involved...until then we should continue to support Ukraine

[stanfordchef]

On 7/13/2024 at 10:00 AM, Hashbrowns said:

 

Are we in this to prop up the military-industrial complex here? Or do we actually have some moral/geopolitical necessity to help protect them? What’s the endgame here?

Making money for Raytheon and friends. Same as it ever was. 
 

with the added benefit of giving our historic adversary a black eye and slowly bleeding them out. 
 

as long as we don’t send troops I’m happy to sell them weapons and other machinery. 

[Sactowndog]

On 7/13/2024 at 10:00 AM, Hashbrowns said:

Here’s weapons, just don’t be aggressive with them strategy is a losing one.

https://apnews.com/article/nato-summit-ukraine-russia-china-biden-66656f03cd5e203d4074bdb2ead8abd8
 

Ukraine has lost about an Italy size of territory already. Moscow hasn’t felt a thing. 3% GDP growth and 100k military deaths mostly from its prisons and rural areas.

Are we in this to prop up the military-industrial complex here? Or do we actually have some moral/geopolitical necessity to help protect them? What’s the endgame here?

I agree this is a valid critique.  Joe is an overly cautious old man who has repeatedly failed in missions from the Afghan withdrawal to the pier that strangely keeps coming ungrounded.  
 

If he wasn’t running against a Felon with zero respect for the Constitution the race would be over already.   At this point the best we can hope for is someone drops a bomb on the debate stage.